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The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

efinancialcareers.com

611–620 of 869 posts

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I liken C++ (and other "industrial" languages, like PHP), to "advanced" tools, like the specialty tools and brands, that only professional mechanics know, like OTC. You won't get them at Home Depot. The language definitely has its niche, and I am glad to see it not being used for standard GUI programming, anymore. But for that niche, there's nothing better, and it's a big niche.

What can PHP do that other less vilified languages can't? What is its "niche"?

My experience from 1990 was it was the perfect language to add a bit of server-side logic to some raw HTML.

So the niche (for me) was a nice transition from something I understood (HTML) to something new (dynamic webpages).

In that way it is similar to batch files / bash scripts.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#612

I find it funny that the headline states it as a general trend while it's looking at it only through the prism of "the finance/crypto industry struggles to find C++ developers". Maybe part of the problem is that people don't want to work on your bullshit crypto products, or just on HFT.

Bingo. I've been approached continuously by recruiters looking for finance and/or crypto firms and I won't go anywhere near it. 2x the salary but 10x the stress with type A finance bros yelling at you constantly? Fuck that. Full disclosure: I'm a sucky C++ programmer. If if they're approaching me that means they've chewed up everyone else they can find. So, another red flag.

>2x the salary but 10x the stress with type A finance bros yelling at you constantly? Fuck that.

I am in that industry and this hardly happens. Probably at places like Citadel, not otherwise. In HFT's, traders are basically quantitative traders now. They do both strategy development and trading i.e they have a strong STEM background and are much different than finance bros at most traditional hedge funds.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HFT entails only a small part of the usage of C++. It's still being used in many embedded systems (including automotive, aviation and building automation), where Rust is also available. Interop is always possible with C/C++ so there's little excuse not to use Rust there.

But the origin of the article is from efinancialcareers. They are most definitely not gonna switch to Rust

Some HFT firms are starting to use Rust for new projects.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the embedded space pays terrible, and the employers don't seem great on the whole. When I was at Google I got to work on embedded stuff and really liked it; but I was getting a Google salary. When I left Google I pursued IoT and embedded jobs a bit and while I was not expecting Google level compensation at all, I was astounded at what was going on there, pay wise. General software eng back end jobs pay better. T…

I'm really hoping the salaries for EE type roles start to match software as the grey beards start to retire and talent becomes scarce. We've got a legion of grads going into CS, but EE classes are a fraction of that. Despite that, software roles are often more than double the salary. Any role I go into as an EE/Embedded Systems engineer, I'm more often than not the youngest by 20-30 years. I wonder how the industry i…

The industry will do just fine. In all my years assisting in the hiring process (I'm software, but due to my EE background I was often asked to help with interviewing EEs), I've never noticed a shortage of EE applicants. OTOH, we had a lot of trouble finding enough software people to hire.

The reality is that EE jobs are a small fraction of the software ones and supply is keeping up with demand, so there's no upward salary pressure.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#615
post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. This is a complete falsehood spread most likely by the financial companies themselves. I worked at Investment Banks for many years, doing low level C/C++ type stuff in various flavors of algorithmic trading and high frequency trading. I left in 2014, because I got an offer for 40% more just doing pure web stuff in Javascript. In the years since I have more than quadrupled my TC, and my neighbor, who is es…

Banks in general pay a lot less for C++ devs than prop trading firms do.

I should have added that I worked in prop funds during that period as well, I left finance for a bit to do "pure tech" and then went back to a top N hedge fund until recently (and while there are always silly arguments about these things, N was rarely considered greater than 5) for about 5 years, and while yes everyone was paid nicely there, no one was paid 7 figures for their C++ skills. Quant researchers that were writing C++, different story, but they were paid entirely for their research/alpha generating ability, C++ was just a tool they used to get there. In fact, hearing about their hiring process, it was mostly math questions, I am not even sure there was a big in depth technical portion to their interview loop.

Similarly, there were some AI/ML guys that were rumored to be hauling it in, but this was not for their tech skills- though they were doing mostly python, it was for their AI/ML specific knowledge. As was kind of typical at that place, and most places like it, those guys I think all flamed out and were let go by the time I left. While its not easy to "score a deal" and get promised a very high package for a year or two, its actually much harder in those types of roles to actually keep your seat there. But... if you are actually producing models that generate alpha/profit for the firm, then you are golden.

AI/ML was really just a specific manifestation of a larger trend of if you were on the bleeding edge of a capability that the firm wanted- IE had invented it, or were a very early successful adopter, my firm would have been welling to pay well above typical market to get that. Think along the lines of cloud (2016ish), Kubernetes (2017/18ish), "big data" (2016ish) capability, etc... an alternate route would be to have had successfully engineered change in an org to adopt something like real SRE. Even those types of things, I don't believe anyone was over 7 figures, but maybe? Regardless, the typical path there would be to kind of "burn and churn" those types- IE they build it, maybe its even quite successful, and then thats your niche for the rest of your time there (which is not what most leader types want), or you don't succeed and just get pushed out pretty quick- SRE as a concept was something my previous firm tried several stabs at hiring guys from Google for, but they just never made any real inroads on.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#616
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having recently learned C++/C.. I don't see why it would be taught as a first language outside of specializations. The gains from C/C++ coding are vastly outweighed by the costs. The reality is that there is no good, agreed upon standard in C++ for how to manage memory... how would you teach this to junior engineers at university?

Having learned C/C++ as my first languages I can say I'm quite glad for it. I was able to learn so fucking much. 1. Object oriented programming, complete with inheritance and virtual dispatch 2. Pure Functional Programming, lambdas, const correctness, template metaprogramming 3. Type system fuckery - the things you can do in C++'s TMP is insane. Both nominal and duck typing in the language. 4. Hardware - I watched so…

7. Fundimental underpinnings - Every other language is written essentially in C - you can often understand how their features WORK if you know C extremely well.

... I'd argue that 1,2 are covered by rust. 3 and 6 by unsafe rust.

Once you have that, a transition to pure C for the full 7 makes sense, and would be trivial for a rust dev.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#617
post #413
post #209

I’ll offer a perspective unrelated to pay: It’s a pain to start learning C++, and even after you do, older devs will roast the hell out of your code because your book/tutorials of choice forgot to mention a crucial (in their opinion) feature that you absolutely should/shouldn’t use! Not to mention you’ve only programmed on Mac/Linux so far & windows is totally different, has a different compiler, different ways to in…

As someone who has been writing C++ at Google, this exactly. Despite all the tooling, guidelines and "internal magic", C++ is still an abomination. And no it has nothing to do with memory management, I actually do like C. I love how Eric Raymond describes it as "anti-compact", because, well, it really is. C++ as a whole should be deprecated -- and no new projects should use C++ (unless for some very odd and specific…

> C++ as a whole should be deprecated -- and no new projects should use C++ (unless for some very odd and specific reason)

Too bold statement. There are still lots of reasons to keep using C++. LOTS.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The demand for EE roles is far less than the demand for Software roles. For a simple thought experiment, imagine if you could get a good developer for $20 an hour. Every single company on the planet, from a mom and pop shop to big corporations could turn a profit off their work. Now imagine you could get an electrical engineer for the same price. What percent of businesses could profit from electrical engineering? 2%…

My point wasn't about demand though. I'm well aware it flags behind SW companies by a staggering margin. A small team of SE's with enough money to buy some laptops between them can create multi-million dollars worth of value in a few years. It would take a team of EEs 5x the time and 25x the initial investment to create the same. Of course there are going to be 100's of SE companies for every EE one. My comment was r…

Bear in mind, though, that a lot of those EEs going into software are doing so not because they love software, but because they can't find EE jobs. Sure, many are no doubt doing it for the money, but if they really wanted to be programmers, they'd have majored in CS.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#619

Well, hire me and train me. I'm a mediocre Python data engineer but self taught myself a bit of C and C++ plus I don't ask for high salary. Something like 90K CAD is good for me.

Most places need people who have production C++ experience. If someone is self-taught and hasn't done production-level C++, then some places are willing to train but don't expect to be hired in anything above a junior-level role.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#620
post #189

I was a C++ programmer for 25 years. Last 3 years, I'm using Rust language in my daily job and for all my hobby projects. I will not return to work in C++ again. No money can make me to change my decision. Nowadays, programming is a pure joy for me again. This was not the case when I had to work with C++.

long time C++ programmer here too, 30ish years, but I don't use it for much anymore. While I like that the language has improved, it's just a nicer experience coding in other languages.
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