Most of C++ programming is tied in legacy code and tech debt, that is why it has that image. Only so few modern green field C++ projects with latest standard out there.
The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
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Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#162I think the general idea of Rust seen as more interesting to invest efforts in is on point.
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#163Talent is a myth.
https://www.inc.com/graham-winfrey/malcolm-gladwell-on-hirin...
Any developer can learn C++ (or at least the subset used in most real-world code). It's not like theoretical quantum physics or something. Hire people and then send them to training.
Can't afford to train your employees? Then you don't have a viable business in the first place. Might as well liquidate and return the capital to investors instead of wasting time on a slow death spiral.
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or be a part of a discord group that flies a pride flag in your face for 6 months of the year. A helping of ideology is what I've really been looking for in a programming language.
wow sounds rough buddy
May not be rough for me, but it's rough for @ChoooCole. You're being dismissive, acting like the ideology is harmless. She has to live with the consequences of the actions that the pride community influenced her to take at 16. It's not harmless.
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, the embedded space pays terrible, and the employers don't seem great on the whole. When I was at Google I got to work on embedded stuff and really liked it; but I was getting a Google salary. When I left Google I pursued IoT and embedded jobs a bit and while I was not expecting Google level compensation at all, I was astounded at what was going on there, pay wise. General software eng back end jobs pay better. T…
I'm really hoping the salaries for EE type roles start to match software as the grey beards start to retire and talent becomes scarce. We've got a legion of grads going into CS, but EE classes are a fraction of that. Despite that, software roles are often more than double the salary. Any role I go into as an EE/Embedded Systems engineer, I'm more often than not the youngest by 20-30 years. I wonder how the industry i…
The demand for EE roles is far less than the demand for Software roles.
For a simple thought experiment, imagine if you could get a good developer for $20 an hour. Every single company on the planet, from a mom and pop shop to big corporations could turn a profit off their work.
Now imagine you could get an electrical engineer for the same price. What percent of businesses could profit from electrical engineering? 2%?
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#166> People are seemingly scared away from the language by a terrible stigma: the notion that it is a legacy program. My personal experience: Universities (in Germany) simply stopped teaching C++. Most of it is now Python or C#.
Having recently learned C++/C.. I don't see why it would be taught as a first language outside of specializations. The gains from C/C++ coding are vastly outweighed by the costs. The reality is that there is no good, agreed upon standard in C++ for how to manage memory... how would you teach this to junior engineers at university?
I'm always conflicted with this.
My gut says any new student should start with an interpreted language like Python or JS/TypeScript. As that gets you to running code, and core concepts like variables, loops and if statements in little to no time.
However, there is value in learning some of the under the hood concepts such as pointers, structs, memory layout, endianess, pass by reference, compilers etc.
I don't think schools need to teach employable C/C++ skills, but C/C++ is a great language to play with and experience these core concepts.
However I'm not sure if the value in learning these concepts are real, or it's just my own interests/nostalgia. You can have a successful career in this industry without having to manage a single byte of memory, and it arguably makes sense to accept abstractions at their face value so you can focus on what builds your skills/product.
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#167Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…
> Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. But these are all implemented in C++ or C? Those aren't low-paying jobs.
> But these are all implemented in C++ or C?
Mostly, but Rust is increasingly replacing them.
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#168As a talented C++ developer... yes there is a dearth of talented C++ developers. I've been to several C++ conferences. Even there, many of the engineers end up learning "new" things that are IMO basic concepts that have been around for years. I recently went through a hiring phase for Senior C++ engineers and most of the applicants were familiar with old tech. It was really disheartening to me to realize how many "se…
I can't help but wonder if developers are simply off-put by the complexity of the language itself. Way back in 1989 I was fortunate enough to get Borland's C/C++ compiler, the K&R C book, and Stroustrup's C++ book - which, at the time, was about the same size as the K&R C book. The C++ language was relatively simple to learn at that time: no STL, no odd pointer types, no template metaprogramming, etc. Fast-forward to…
> I only have a guess as to what a `shared_ptr` or `unique_ptr` type is, and I certainly don't know when to use them, and concepts/traits outlined in the STL documentation seem to be some sort of generalizations that the STL might provide default implementations for, but might not? What exactly is the syntax and/or type of a lambda function and how do they interact with C function pointers? etc., etc.
And that's exactly my point though! `shared_ptr` and `unique_ptr` solve (or, at least, simplify) a lot of the memory management problems endemic to all C code and old C++ code. And they've been around for over a decade now.
I would absolutely be willing to spend some time with you to teach you what new things are, what they do (and what problems they solve), and how to use them without introducing new problems. I think several one-on-one teaching sessions would help you a lot with that. But one-on-one teaches you and not the thousands of other old-experienced C++ developers also in your shoes.
> I get the sense that C++'s evolution has been driven by esoteric corner cases that a handful of developers have encountered and the language & STL design has been driven by those cases.
While some of the C++ evolution fits that category... I would also add that a lot of changes in modern C++17, C++20, or C++23 are aimed directly to the masses of C++ developers doing "everyday" work. shared_ptr and unique_ptr are definitely not esoteric corner cases: they're driven to specifically solve memory management problems that have directly contributed to some very significant CVEs in many thousands of products.
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#169Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…
Yes, the embedded space pays terrible, and the employers don't seem great on the whole. When I was at Google I got to work on embedded stuff and really liked it; but I was getting a Google salary. When I left Google I pursued IoT and embedded jobs a bit and while I was not expecting Google level compensation at all, I was astounded at what was going on there, pay wise. General software eng back end jobs pay better. T…
Isn't this a sign of a problem ? where important domains with hard problems pay few .. while some dubious applications are throwing money on css plumbers ?
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#170I find it funny that the headline states it as a general trend while it's looking at it only through the prism of "the finance/crypto industry struggles to find C++ developers".
Maybe part of the problem is that people don't want to work on your bullshit crypto products, or just on HFT.