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Scientists Increasingly Can’t Explain How AI Works

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Re: Scientists Increasingly Can’t Explain How AI Works

#201

Who would have guessed that having a highly complex black box means you can't explain what's going on inside that black box... My pet theory is that this is the reason why Siri, Alexa and co. still are shit and haven't moved an inch forward since their inception. I like to play "sleep music" through Alexa when I bring my kid to bed. For his mid day nap it all works perfectly. But in the evening when I say the same ph…

> you can't explain what's going on inside that black box Do you have a better solution for speech recognition? We all know how well speech recognition works in reality, and we know language models can accomplish more complex tasks than setting your music and lights. These models are not state of the art, they are cheap versions for scaling up to millions of users. It's sad but we rarely get to see SOTA in a product.

> Do you have a better solution for speech recognition?

Must it be necessary for anyone critiquing a technology to also come armed with a solution?

Re: Scientists Increasingly Can’t Explain How AI Works

#202
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people are really saying, but never will admit, is that they want AI to mirror their own biases, not to have none. That's the reason they are "cleaning" the input data.

I always thought it was the opposite. That we want AI to have no biases, but we have trouble avoiding it. Choosing data and cleaning is where we insert our bias.

[deleted]

Re: Scientists Increasingly Can’t Explain How AI Works

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. As a tool serving humans, we want the tool to reflect the decisions humans should make given the same broad swath of data. "Unbiased machine learning models" is basically a nonsense idea; a machine learning engine is a discrimination / classification tool, and its entire point is to become biased based on inputs so that on future inputs, its outputs tilt over in a desired fashion instead of just being uncorr…

You are conflating the statistical meaning of bias with a social meaning of bias. A statistically unbiased model would be (for example) in which it has the same false positive rate at identifying humans from image data, for varying races, or a model that is equally likely to underpredict as overpredict tomorrow's gas price. These are not nonsense ideas, in fact, they are often good ideas. There are cases, however, wh…

I'm using biased as it is colloquially used and pointing out that when people ask for "unbiased machine learning" they generally need to be more specific, because the whole point of machine learning is to give better answers than random noise.

Re: Scientists Increasingly Can’t Explain How AI Works

#204
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm completely stunned that people will compromise safety to avoid taking a few steps. The idea of filling my home network with iffy iot devices and having a single point of failure for things like lighting my home and unlocking my doors is absolutely crazy to me. Not to mention all the meta data these devices might leak about my routine and whereabouts. I have no idea why people think these are reasonable trade-offs…

I'm both with you and understanding the other side. Decades of watching Star Trek have filled me with the urge to be able to say "Home, prepare for away team departure." or something less eye-roll worthy for my girlfriend, to do as the GP says and close curtains, turn off lights, set heat lower, etc as I leave. But, as you point out, the state of security for IoT devices, the specter of surveillance and monitoring, a…

You can have best of both worlds. There are software that gives you complete control. I use Home Assistant with IKEA Tradfri lights. It works great. More advanced configurations are possible.

Re: Scientists Increasingly Can’t Explain How AI Works

#205
post #204
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm both with you and understanding the other side. Decades of watching Star Trek have filled me with the urge to be able to say "Home, prepare for away team departure." or something less eye-roll worthy for my girlfriend, to do as the GP says and close curtains, turn off lights, set heat lower, etc as I leave. But, as you point out, the state of security for IoT devices, the specter of surveillance and monitoring, a…

You can have best of both worlds. There are software that gives you complete control. I use Home Assistant with IKEA Tradfri lights. It works great. More advanced configurations are possible.

It's long been a project on my mind, but I just haven't found the time yet.

Re: Scientists Increasingly Can’t Explain How AI Works

#206

Who would have guessed that having a highly complex black box means you can't explain what's going on inside that black box... My pet theory is that this is the reason why Siri, Alexa and co. still are shit and haven't moved an inch forward since their inception. I like to play "sleep music" through Alexa when I bring my kid to bed. For his mid day nap it all works perfectly. But in the evening when I say the same ph…

> My pet theory is that this is the reason why Siri, Alexa and co. still are shit and haven't moved an inch forward since their inception. I can't comment much on Siri or Alexa, but Google Assistant has gotten heaps better at understanding my voice and intent since it was first released about 6 years ago. It used to pretty reliably misunderstand at least 1 word per sentence (which made for an extremely frustrating ex…

When asked, Google assistant claims it's sticking around for good.

But we know better.

Re: Scientists Increasingly Can’t Explain How AI Works

#207
post #139

That's the point. If we had good and intuitive models of how a system works, we could simply write a program to calculate whatever result we were looking for. The purpose of AI is to look at data and find patterns that the human mind struggles to pick up thus allowing us to make accurate predictions without understanding the underlying rules. In the early days of AI when we were basically just practicing, we applied…

> The purpose of AI ... patterns No. That is just some model of AI. I think I should advise following the publicly available MIT course of late Prof. Patrick Winston. > as AI has graduated to the level where it can be used for real world applications I am pretty sure we had applications in the '50s. > it is successfully ... figuring out relations which are not only difficult to spot but also difficult to turn into an…

> No. That is just some model of AI.

Finding patterns in data without being told explicitly what to look for is the hallmark of AI. Anything that doesn't do that isn't AI.

> I am pretty sure we had applications in the '50s.

For a different definition of applications than the one I was clearly using, yes.

> And we would like to know them, for many reasons. Because in some cases what we are looking for is the full solution as opposed to the conclusion; because we do not just trust advice blindly; because it is productive in the very engineering effort...

And I would like my car not to crash, but that's not the point of a seatbelt. Of course it would be wonderful if we understood everything, but we don't, and so we have created a tool to let us overcome that limitation.

Re: Scientists Increasingly Can’t Explain How AI Works

#208

Who would have guessed that having a highly complex black box means you can't explain what's going on inside that black box... My pet theory is that this is the reason why Siri, Alexa and co. still are shit and haven't moved an inch forward since their inception. I like to play "sleep music" through Alexa when I bring my kid to bed. For his mid day nap it all works perfectly. But in the evening when I say the same ph…

> My pet theory is that this is the reason why Siri, Alexa and co. still are shit and haven't moved an inch forward since their inception. I can't comment much on Siri or Alexa, but Google Assistant has gotten heaps better at understanding my voice and intent since it was first released about 6 years ago. It used to pretty reliably misunderstand at least 1 word per sentence (which made for an extremely frustrating ex…

I have precisely the opposite with my Google home speaker. Also a reduction of functionality, as I used to be able to read some messages and set a reminder, but now it just gives me the time and plays Spotify music.

I like voice commands, but I like them working reliably. I can't believe there was like an open-source zapier-like voice command API that could be used for everything and maintained properly.

Re: Scientists Increasingly Can’t Explain How AI Works

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't like exposing my electronics to the internet, and I still don't see how any of this stuff is better than flicking a switch. That assumes you are close to the switch, that you have switches for all the things you want to do and that you are even free to operate said switches. I do agree if all you are doing is turning a device on and off, it isn't that helpful(it can still be as it allows you to do something…

I'm completely stunned that people will compromise safety to avoid taking a few steps. The idea of filling my home network with iffy iot devices and having a single point of failure for things like lighting my home and unlocking my doors is absolutely crazy to me. Not to mention all the meta data these devices might leak about my routine and whereabouts. I have no idea why people think these are reasonable trade-offs…

[deleted]

Re: Scientists Increasingly Can’t Explain How AI Works

#210
My 0.02... I'm not a neural network expert but have done a fair amount of nonlinear dynamic modeling and large-system optimization work in my career. I have always felt (and commented on HH) that neural network based approaches to complex problems would work well up to a point and then fundamentally not be able to go any further because of the massive degrees of freedom in NN-based modeling and the emergent erratic, non-linear behavior. So a specific NN model could get me 95% accuracy or "performance" on some task, but 98%, or 99.5%, is mathematically impossible... limit of "impossibility" being different for each problem.

Trained neural networks of reasonable size have many thousands of independent variables and, as a result, have incredibly complex dynamics and behavior. Conversely, this explains why neural networks (of sometimes modest size) are able to approximately model behavior of extremely complex systems, linear or non-linear.

We can often understand the sensitivity of the NN to a specific variable in the NN, or the interplay of three variables together. Once we need to consider tens or hundreds of variables, we really can't fathom the dynamics and interplay of variables in the model any more... in some cases, iterative numerical sensitivity analysis can help. But even reasonably small NN's can have millions of variables and these numerical analysis methods become intractable to apply.

Remember the news of about 'single pixel' attacks against machine learning models that analyze and "categorize" images... researcher could change the category of an image by changing one pixel, the "right pixel", or hot pink or something. The researchers where in effect exploring a small sub-space of the NN and finding "regions of extreme dynamics" (highly weird behavior) in the model. There is no "rationale" for changing a cat to a dog based on one pixel going hot-pink in a 2M pixel... but there are extreme dynamics in model that allow that to happen.

I worked for a time on infrared detector development and "badly behaving" pixels (blinkers, etc.) were enemy #1 for IR computer vision because the wrong blinking pixel in a 4M+ pixel imaging array could cause all kinds of problems in the CV algorithms. It was okay for a pixel to be dead, or hot, or have low quantum efficiency... but pixels that blink, flicker, etc. periodically caused extremely erratic, unpredictable behavior of video analysis algorithms, which were largely NN-based, or used other high-degree of freedom modeling / decision-making methods.

While we can't predict this kind of weird behavior ahead of time from a specific NN model of reasonable size, we expect it. As briefly discussed above, we can't inspect complex NN models and figure out how and where they are going wrong. We'd have to perform an exhaustive, permutation-based search of the NN dynamic 'phase space' to determine what variable tweaks in the NN achieve the affects we are looking for... that search is, I think, a NP-hard problem (but I'm not sure).

There are a lot of other factors influencing the general "hardness" of modeling complex things with neural networks (data quality, etc.)... but this idea of "complex dynamics" in NN's is, I think, the fundamental problem that can be partially mitigated but not completely solved.

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