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Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

bbc.com

271–280 of 307 posts

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#271
post #206

Struggling to understand China’s endgame here. Assuming they achieve zero covid, surely they will be left with a population that is still vulnerable to covid, while the rest of the world (which has largely stopped caring) will have developed immunity the hard way, and therefore China must maintain permanent quarantine/isolation to avoid reintroducing the virus?

I have been puzzled by this too, especially given my general perception of Chinese leadership as highly competent. My best theory is that Chinese people are very paranoid about infectious disease, and that the leadership believes that their political legitimacy would be threatened by mass infection numbers.

I mean, we thought that too about Putin et al, about the UK, and about the US. I think we may need to reexamine our priors about how intelligent our leaders are.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#272
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So how long can China keep up with this zero policy as factories move production elsewhere? The divestment of China has more reasons than just COVID: - Wages in China have risen to a point where other countries have an advantage because unchecked capitalism always optimizes for "inefficiency", and labor costs are an immense factor for these extremely large operations - Western sanctions against China have increased…

>Agreed. The problem with China's COVID policy, however, is not antivaxxers on Twitter - it is that the Chinese vaccines are absolute trash compared to Western vaccines, but Xi Jinping can't really backtrack on his decision to only use domestic vaccines because that would imply he, the half-god, has made an error in judgement. China can't be that absurd can they? That just seems totally crazy to me. Also China's vacc…

> Also China's vaccine isn't that bad, really.

It absolutely is, particularly against Omicron and its successors [1].

[1] https://www.ft.com/content/729f1dc0-32d1-42c9-bb62-63a41f1e8...

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#273
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lockdowns certainly can stop geometric rise of an infection and it can make sense if you don't want to have people who might have been saved dying in hospital corridors due to lack of capacity but IMHO it doesn't make any sense whatsoever as a long term solution if the lockdown is not globally coordinated to eradicate the microbe at once. If the lockdown is not global, it will keep coming back. That's why I wonder wh…

A couple of reasons. First, the strict measures were popular and people demanded them. It's been a while since I've spoken with people in China so I'm not sure how much this is still the case, but it was definitely true up to last year. Second, the measures allowed most people to move relatively freely and go to discos when we still had blanket lockdowns in the west. The idea was to crackdown hard and quickly create…

> First, the strict measures were popular and people demanded them.

How is this determined? A democratic vote....in China? At best, it's tyranny of the majority. The article quoted Xi as saying the people wanted it, but that's not the same thing.

"Videos posted on Chinese social media site Weibo showed people rushing to the park's gates following the announcement but finding them already locked."

It's a great policy to apply to other people. But it seems that they don't want any of it.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#274
post #206

Struggling to understand China’s endgame here. Assuming they achieve zero covid, surely they will be left with a population that is still vulnerable to covid, while the rest of the world (which has largely stopped caring) will have developed immunity the hard way, and therefore China must maintain permanent quarantine/isolation to avoid reintroducing the virus?

I mean they built a very large wall once.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#275
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lockdowns certainly can stop geometric rise of an infection and it can make sense if you don't want to have people who might have been saved dying in hospital corridors due to lack of capacity but IMHO it doesn't make any sense whatsoever as a long term solution if the lockdown is not globally coordinated to eradicate the microbe at once. If the lockdown is not global, it will keep coming back. That's why I wonder wh…

> I wonder what China is trying to achieve here. Exactly the same as what the western world has tried for 2 years, give or take. It doesn’t work either way, but due to their authoritarian government they just have the ability to keep trying for longer.

The western world made a show of trying, but trying to balance political considerations with covid control is basically impossible. When cases are low, the political pressure to relax restrictions is irresistible, and then R goes above 1, but the political will to do anything about it comes too late to help much.

Frankly I'm surprised that China managed to control Omicron. It's certainly a social-technical feat.

In the end, only time will tell whether the Chinese strategy was a good one for China. Obviously China has paid extreme costs to maintain its policy. It's still unknown what the longer term results to the health of the population will be in other countries will be though.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simply zero covid working better than the best vaccines which will still lead to millions of deaths at PRC scale and with PRC's relatively lower per capita medical infra. Economically it sucks, but despite disruptions PRC exports booming and moving up the value chain until global slowdown due to UKR war, while being huge producer + cheap RU energy + reserves = slower growth + low inflation, and PRC is still doin…

> It's simply zero covid working better than the best vaccines which will still lead to millions of deaths at PRC scale and with PRC's relatively lower per capita medical infra. If China was able to logistically handle zero covid, I would be more inclined to agree with you. However, each time a city in China has been locked down, it has been a logistical disaster that almost always resulted in: - extremely poor quara…

> able to logistically handle zero covid

Seeing as we are almost 12+ months post delta/omicron and local outbreaks have consistently been contained to prevent uncontrolled geometric spread, yes PRC is logistically handling zero covid. Over many lock downs, of various sizes, across different regions, to keep spread at so-far managable levels.

> logistical disaster / always resulted in / it's lead to death

Of course, it's not a smooth 5star process, shutting down urban regions with millions fundmentally can't be. That's not a failure of policy, but acceptable baseline for competent epidemiologic management, competence being it contains spread and saves significantly more lives than it takes. Some pain/death is inevitable operating on the scale of hundreds of millions. The "very thing it's suppose to avoid" is millions of deaths due to uncontrolled spread and overwhelmed medical system, not a hundreds/thousands of incidental deaths because someone peoeple starved/suicided/bus crashed. Same with increasing chance of local spread to prevent higher order spread. Like these aren't exquistily managed bespoke interventions, they're coarse but by now tested methods that can be implemented in a snap. Of course it's not clean, but it's better than health system collapsing. The cost benefit analysis of maintaining zero covid, when one can, and PRC can, is obvious. So obvious that I'd argue they're politically trapped by repeated demonstrating ability to logistically execute zero covid.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#277
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In China, that number is less than 1%. If you can believe that number. If I had Covid in China I would do everything to keep that a secret. The drop in productivity is a fake as it is still higher than in 2010 before Covid. China already has an edge by numbers alone. Total productivity is the main factor here.

Point 1 is reasonable, point 3 arguable, but point 2 is way off.. > The drop in productivity is a fake as it is still higher than in 2010 before Covid. Could it be that we made technological progress in the mean time? The drop definitely isn't fake ( https://www.bls.gov/charts/productivity-and-costs/nonfarm-bu... , look at the blue line), and a stark break from a consistent increase in productivity that's been ongoin…

Well, if the noise of productivity seems to allow +10% year-to-year, it is the same in the other direction. I simply don't believe the prognosis.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/10/31/productiv...

This is a typical media filler story. Textual bullshit. Reality was probably too boring again.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vaccines mean it's no longer the least worst option. Millions of dead, and 100s of millions taken out of workforce for ~2 weeks during infection, possibly multiple times, possibly with long covid effects for years after, or we're coming up on winter where immunity weakest. It's far from clear vaccines isn't the worst option short term (0-3 years). >flush the economy down the toilet I mean sure? Except with confluen…

chinese population is ~1.4 billion https://health-study.joinzoe.com/post/risk-covid-after-vacci... >We saw that 2,394 and 187 people tested positive for COVID-19 more than two >weeks after their first and second jabs, respectively, with the chances of ?>becoming infected falling as time passed. >That’s the equivalent of one in 500 (0.2%) and one in 3,333 (0.03%) 1,400,000,000 x 0.002 = 2,800,000 (Note I actually misi…

Rather than doing napkin math using sources like joinzoe, i.e. self report (app) on population with high natural immunity due to uncontrolled spread, with great health care infra, and low population density - many factors why that's a bad place to start your reason chain - here's earlier study by epidemologists who are familiar with PRC conditions.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01855-7

> lift such measures could see more than 112 million symptomatic cases of Covid-19, five million hospitalisations, and 1.55 million deaths.

There's also later analysis that extrapolates with TW/SKR numbers after they began living with covid with IIRC greater deaths. These are fellow East Asian examples with more simliar conditions than PRC except they have much better per capita health care infra.

>relevant factor is how good is the vaccine at preventing major illness and hospitalisation.

Yes and the relevant factor to that relevant factor is PRC doesn't have the ICU beds / hospital infra per capita to absorb even vaxed spread. Most of country is old and underdeveloped and "crushing the curve" is still the best path. Vax prevents severe cases but at PRC scale and infectiousness of omicron, in dense urban enviroments during colder seasons, that's still more symptomatic severe cases than the medical system can handle.

>We find that the level of immunity induced by the March 2022 vaccination campaign would be insufficient to prevent an Omicron wave that would result in exceeding critical care capacity with a projected intensive care unit peak demand of 15.6 times the existing capacity

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/11/lifting-zero-c...

That's the crux of the issue, PRC is a developing country with low hospital beds per capita that demographically skews old (and antivax). These factors means PRC is better off with no vaccines and zero covid than vaccines and living with covid until zero covid or some other factor makes zero covid unsustainble.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#279
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point 1 is reasonable, point 3 arguable, but point 2 is way off.. > The drop in productivity is a fake as it is still higher than in 2010 before Covid. Could it be that we made technological progress in the mean time? The drop definitely isn't fake ( https://www.bls.gov/charts/productivity-and-costs/nonfarm-bu... , look at the blue line), and a stark break from a consistent increase in productivity that's been ongoin…

Well, if the noise of productivity seems to allow +10% year-to-year, it is the same in the other direction. I simply don't believe the prognosis. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/10/31/productiv... This is a typical media filler story. Textual bullshit. Reality was probably too boring again.

It's not year-to-year noise, it's quarter-to-quarter, and there's a seasonal pattern that vanishes if you do year-on-year quarter comparison (see the solid blue line in the bls.gov chart).

The WaPo article only shows the dotted line data from the BLS graph, which is far noisier, but shows two consecutive quarters of decline, which is unusual too.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder what China is trying to achieve here. Exactly the same as what the western world has tried for 2 years, give or take. It doesn’t work either way, but due to their authoritarian government they just have the ability to keep trying for longer.

The western world made a show of trying, but trying to balance political considerations with covid control is basically impossible. When cases are low, the political pressure to relax restrictions is irresistible, and then R goes above 1, but the political will to do anything about it comes too late to help much. Frankly I'm surprised that China managed to control Omicron. It's certainly a social-technical feat. In t…

Ah, clinging to the old fantasy of ‘low R values’, as if somehow that will cause the pandemic to disappear. In reality that outcome will online happen when there are exactly 0 cases left, both in humans and animals, in any country in the world. Spoiler: that’s never going to happen.
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