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As last module docks, China completes its space station

nytimes.com

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Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#331

Post by natch »

adrian_b wrote: post #250
jonnybgood wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little more nuanced than being a traitor to science given China's strategy in regards to acquisition of scientific research and technology. China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China.

It would be interesting to see some concrete examples of what is claimed in "Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China." Whenever I search recent research articles about any topic, I see a very large number that are published by China, and which are freely available. The quality of the Chinese research is quite uneven, there are many papers that are just g…

> but there are also many which appear surprisingly creative and original

ftfy

I don’t claim there is no creativity in China. But to claim that everything that looks new to you is therefore original goes too far.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#332

Post by rtkwe »

wumpus wrote: post #222
rtkwe wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Solar panels smaller in area than ISS but produces similar amount of power, indicating much more efficient solar panels I should hope so after over a decade. AFAIK they haven't changed the solar panels since the last one was installed in 2009 and the design was probably fixed well before the first one was installed. > A robotic arm similar to ISS that walk along the joint points on the station. It has expandable at…

I think you missed the recent delivery of new roll-up solar panels to the ISS. Also I don't think the CanadaArm can roam to the Russian segment, but there's a new European arm that does.

I've tried and can't find a list of the positions of the grapple fixtures CanadaArm uses on the ISS but I think it could reach pretty far over the Russian segments from the other half of the station.

I did forget about those but they did only cover one small part of the array iirc. Most of the original array is still active.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#333

Post by tomp »

captainmuon wrote: post #281
jonnybgood wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little more nuanced than being a traitor to science given China's strategy in regards to acquisition of scientific research and technology. China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China.

I think describing China as one monolithic block in that way is problematic and denies the agency of Chinese people. It is tempting to look at the different political system and lump everything together. You have to distinguish between the government, researchers, and Chinese companies. I know many Chinese researchers who are collaborating fairly, and they have very similar interests and - mixed - incentives as weste…

What agency do Chinese people have?

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#334

Post by natch »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #247
jonnybgood wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little more nuanced than being a traitor to science given China's strategy in regards to acquisition of scientific research and technology. China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China.

> Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China I'd like to see sources backing up this claim. Huawei for example has 5G patents and research centers outside China. Hualong-1 nuclear plants are exported abroad. Seeing that China is big on business and making money, it makes no sense to keep technology for yourself. There's so much money to be made by selling t…

It seems to me research centers outside of China are used to recruit willing experts from other companies whose knowledge of proprietary information can then be unethically harvested and absorbed by Huawei.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#335

Post by natch »

bigcat12345678 wrote: post #258
jonnybgood wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little more nuanced than being a traitor to science given China's strategy in regards to acquisition of scientific research and technology. China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China.

> Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China Any such actual event happening? I have heard this stated repeatedly, but my Google search reveals no actual reporting, other than the ones where the foreign party voluntarily exited or being forced aware from their own political pressure (that is not from Chinese side).

Asked and answered. WIV was one.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#336

Post by anaganisk »

kube-system wrote: post #234
aero-glide2 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good thing. Space stations should be retired after 10 years. The ISS is so old that 85% of the time is spent on maintenance.

Aren’t there valuable things to learn from maintaining equipment in space over a long period of time?

Once yes, 10 times the same thing no?

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#337

Post by codedokode »

hoseja wrote: post #267
FooBarWidget wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China I'd like to see sources backing up this claim. Huawei for example has 5G patents and research centers outside China. Hualong-1 nuclear plants are exported abroad. Seeing that China is big on business and making money, it makes no sense to keep technology for yourself. There's so much money to be made by selling t…

1. backdoored surveillance 2. belt and road

And western equipment is totally not backdoored, and has open source hardware and firmware so that anyone can verify it?

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#338

Post by zmaurelius »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #278
nordsieck wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think they are as cost-efficient as SpaceX or even Atlas and Ariane systems. It seems unlikely anyone is as cost-efficient as Falcon 9 with reuse. It appears to me, as an outsider, that Atlas and Ariane are 4-5 times as expensive to operate. There is probably plenty of room for China to operate more efficiently than that. Especially with their launch volume, which is second only to SpaceX.

China is not a high-tech nation. There is a thin patina of bling-bling but underneath they have big trouble between corruption and nobody else trusting them. China has lots of money (for now...) so they can throw a lot of resources at the problem. In China, quick public successes always take precedence over doing it right.

How do you define 'high-tech' here? Would a 'low-tech' nation be able to build a space station like this?

China has a lot of systemic issues stemming from corruption and nepotism, but they also have a large population and a culture of investing in the education of their children. It isn't a coincidence that there is a huge number of Asians at elite US colleges, which would be even higher if affirmative action wasn't so prevalent. Its only a matter of time before China will catch up to the US and reach technology parity.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#339

Post by captainmuon »

tomp wrote: post #333
captainmuon wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think describing China as one monolithic block in that way is problematic and denies the agency of Chinese people. It is tempting to look at the different political system and lump everything together. You have to distinguish between the government, researchers, and Chinese companies. I know many Chinese researchers who are collaborating fairly, and they have very similar interests and - mixed - incentives as weste…

What agency do Chinese people have?

The people have independent ideas and wills - and not a hive mind - is what I'm saying.

> China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China.

Regardless of what strategy the government is pursuing, I know personally that many Chinese researchers do collaborate on an honest basis. They have to put a lot of effort into dispelling the prejudice that they just want to leech technology for their government.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#340

Post by deltasevennine »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #277
deltasevennine wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I agree. But competition breeds advancement. It has roots from capitalism all the way down to natural selection and survival of the fittest. It works. There's no doubt in my mind that part of what's driving China in not just the space race is the fact that they want to beat the US.

In space exploration competition is just wasted effort. There may be some benefit, but only when the majority is dropping the ball. Cost effectiveness is already a major driver in innovation, and even inside a national space program there always is a high degree of competition between ideas and concepts.

All competition is wasted effort. Perfect collaboration always wins. But competition is what motivates humans, and unfortunately this inefficient way of working is what drives humanity forward.

China would not even bother with half the stuff they accomplished for space if it were not the existence of a competitive goal. The irony is what the US tried to do to contain them in actuality enabled them.

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