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As last module docks, China completes its space station

nytimes.com

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Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#251

Post by bee_rider »

iancmceachern wrote: post #224
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so the chaos and lack of documentation in my company is really protection against chinese spies! Clever! On a more serious note, I find it quite unfair that Western conoany go into China to take advantage of loose labour laws and child labour, and then they complain when loose IP laws hit them. Like you knew what the deal was from the outset. Lastly not every society believes in the concept of intellectual proper…

I mean that's the thing, that wasn't the deal. No company, at all, would sign that agreement. Usually there is an nda, some kind of business agreement that says they won't steal your idea etc. and then they do. It's not like a company goes to China or another lower cost to manufacture country and signs an agreement to give them their business.

Contracts and deals are subordinate to the laws of the country in which we'd like them to be enforced. It's not like a company goes to China and expects tight IP laws.

And hey, our (American) IP laws were a lot less strict when we were catching up to the British Empire.

Countries generally try to set their laws up to benefit their industries (to the extent possible).

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#252

Post by mehrdada »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #198
m4jor wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sanctions do not matter to China. They will just have their nation state backed hackers hack into aerospace and defense contractors and steal their R&D instead. Thats the Chinese way and MO. Anything to further the Chinese economy. They have hacked nearly every F100 they needed to and steal hundreds of billions in IP annually already. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr... - https://www.cnb…

Ah, so the chaos and lack of documentation in my company is really protection against chinese spies! Clever! On a more serious note, I find it quite unfair that Western conoany go into China to take advantage of loose labour laws and child labour, and then they complain when loose IP laws hit them. Like you knew what the deal was from the outset. Lastly not every society believes in the concept of intellectual proper…

You just took one angle. I find it unfair that Facebook is banned by China while China can deploy TikTok in the US market, for example, to demonstrate the opposite.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#253

Post by iancmceachern »

bee_rider wrote: post #251
iancmceachern wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that's the thing, that wasn't the deal. No company, at all, would sign that agreement. Usually there is an nda, some kind of business agreement that says they won't steal your idea etc. and then they do. It's not like a company goes to China or another lower cost to manufacture country and signs an agreement to give them their business.

Contracts and deals are subordinate to the laws of the country in which we'd like them to be enforced. It's not like a company goes to China and expects tight IP laws. And hey, our (American) IP laws were a lot less strict when we were catching up to the British Empire. Countries generally try to set their laws up to benefit their industries (to the extent possible).

I agree with all this. Where does all the ip theft via hacking fall into this view? By this logic hat should be held accountable to the laws of this country, no?

Lots of links to Wikipedia lists of examples in other threads here.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#254

Post by skrebbel »

chrononaut wrote: post #229
nimbius wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So for those wondering why no US collaboration, you can blame republican octogenarian Frank Wolf for introducting the Wolf amendment prohibiting any and all NASA collaboration with china that isnt expressly sanctioned by the rest of the geriatrics in congress. he even managed to fuck up the 2013 Kepler Science Conference which resulted in a mass boycott after two chinese scientists were banned. We had every opportuni…

> that isnt expressly sanctioned by the rest of the geriatrics in congress Interestingly, you inadvertently (?) demonstrated OPs comment by using the opposing definition from GP.

I bet it was on purpose and I love it.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#255

Post by adrian_b »

waterhouse wrote: post #213
peter303 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tiangoon flybys can reaches magnitude -2 now. Bright than most planets. Next bright evening flybys overUS in early December. The ISS, which has five times more modules, reaches magnitude -4 sometimes. Third brightest thing in sky.

... looks like "magnitude" numbers farther below zero are brighter? Who came up with that? > The scale used to indicate magnitude originates in the Hellenistic practice of dividing stars visible to the naked eye into six magnitudes. The brightest stars in the night sky were said to be of first magnitude (m = 1), whereas the faintest were of sixth magnitude (m = 6) [...] > In 1856, Norman Robert Pogson formalized the…

The Pogson system was constrained by the compatibility with the legacy star classification.

The stars had already been described for millennia as being stars of the 1st magnitude, 2nd magnitude and so on, from the brightest to the less bright.

Pogson has chosen both the logarithmic base and the sign of the magnitude which makes higher number less bright, so that the magnitudes computed by his formula will match approximately the already existing classification of the stars.

It was fortunate that the simple rule that a difference of 5 in magnitudes corresponds to a brightness ratio of 100 gave a formula which produced magnitude values that, when rounded to integers, matched in many cases the traditional magnitudes of the stars.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#256

Post by hunglee2 »

tunesmith wrote: post #167
russli1993 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the features I know from the Chinese space station - Solar panels smaller in area than ISS but produces similar amount of power, indicating much more efficient solar panels - Ion thrusters to keep space in orbit - Automated docking of cargo and crew capsule. Semi-automated docking of large station components like the 23ton labs - A robotic arm similar to ISS that walk along the joint points on the station. It…

"sanction" is one of the dumbest words on earth. "to give official approval" vs "impose a penalty".

yes! It not only has a double meaning, but those meanings are actually opposite of each other

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#257

Post by hunglee2 »

ethbr0 wrote: post #165
russli1993 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US did sanction all of China's space industry, defense dual use industries since the 1990s, and never let go ever since. That is pretty early. And this is what happens 30 years since the sanctions. But I have no idea what will happen in the future, plus the nature of industry and technology is also different.

As much as it's a waste of duplicate effort, it's likely good for humanity and geopolitics to have multiple nation-states each trying their own approaches. Avoids path lock-in by exploring alternate solutions lines, and ensures that if one country decides to slow down (because politics) then the world doesn't lose its only leading-edge space program. Healthy competition for the betterment of all!

agree with this - duplication of effort, but not duplication of approach or method, which means actually it becomes a giant A/B test, which hopefully means faster progress for humanity as a whole.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#258

Post by bigcat12345678 »

jonnybgood wrote: post #235
nimbius wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So for those wondering why no US collaboration, you can blame republican octogenarian Frank Wolf for introducting the Wolf amendment prohibiting any and all NASA collaboration with china that isnt expressly sanctioned by the rest of the geriatrics in congress. he even managed to fuck up the 2013 Kepler Science Conference which resulted in a mass boycott after two chinese scientists were banned. We had every opportuni…

It's a little more nuanced than being a traitor to science given China's strategy in regards to acquisition of scientific research and technology. China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China.

> Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China

Any such actual event happening?

I have heard this stated repeatedly, but my Google search reveals no actual reporting, other than the ones where the foreign party voluntarily exited or being forced aware from their own political pressure (that is not from Chinese side).

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#259

Post by DocTomoe »

m4jor wrote: post #169
Jayab wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then maybe a little late to sanction their tech to keep them from being peer competitors.

Sanctions do not matter to China. They will just have their nation state backed hackers hack into aerospace and defense contractors and steal their R&D instead. Thats the Chinese way and MO. Anything to further the Chinese economy. They have hacked nearly every F100 they needed to and steal hundreds of billions in IP annually already. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr... - https://www.cnb…

You make it sound like that was a distinct Chinese tactic and not every country on earth, foremost one that abbreviates itself to three letters, is engaged doing industrial espionage.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#260

Post by cycrutchfield »

homeland221 wrote: post #218
bestouff wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because they are only this advanced because they stole US technology. Chinese people can't be as intelligent as american.

You got this very wrong. Read up Art of War written before Jesus. Espionage is a very important chapter. Americans are rather weak academic these days. You go to any American university and see how many "Asians" there. You will find a lot of Chinese. It is common for Americans not able to speak English well or just English. It is very uncommon not to find Chinese that can read and write Chinese AND English. There are…

Careful with that copium, you might OD on it.
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