Earlier quoted context omitted.
> A popular open source protocol is actually the perfect playing field for a would-be monopolist. At first I thought "email seems a good example of this: most people don't want to leave Google, I don't want to leave FastMail"... but then I remembered that I could just leave FastMail and take my email to Google. Which proves the upthread point about the open protocol being a safety net for users. Can you talk about so…
Email is the paradigmatic example. You can export your mailbox and use `pine` if that's your jam. But in the real world, most users of Gmail will depend on at least one feature of Gmail that isn't easily replicable elsewhere.
Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it
101–110 of 158 posts
Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it
#102Centralization is just the impact of digitization. Digitization is inevitable, because efficiencies are tremendous. Then you will have a battle for control of centralization centered on verifiable identity, kyc and centered ultimately around financial system control, which is the center use case of centralized identity platforms. All incentives during this phase are centralization, consolidation and scale. Decentrali…
The identity system we've been stuck with since WW1 will finally be replaced with something decentralized and approaching fair thanks to digitization. What we're lacking is the software that gives individuals self sovereignty.
Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it
#103Plug: I'm working with the author on a decentralized protocol for networked thought and a companion browser called Subconscious. We're a very young project and just getting off the ground. If you're interested in topics like the one in the article, all our work is open source and we love getting into it with folks on Github or our Discord (link in the README): https://github.com/subconsciousnetwork/noosphere
yet you choose two closed source centralized solutions for your project: Github and Discord
Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you really think Visa and Meta could go under without causing a bank run?
By "Visa" do you mean "all payment clearing houses" and by Meta do you mean "all social media"? Because if Visa shits itself (it has) I use Amex, Mastercard, cash, debit, or even checks. And if Meta shits itself I don't even notice except to make fun of it.
Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it
#105Centralization is just the impact of digitization. Digitization is inevitable, because efficiencies are tremendous. Then you will have a battle for control of centralization centered on verifiable identity, kyc and centered ultimately around financial system control, which is the center use case of centralized identity platforms. All incentives during this phase are centralization, consolidation and scale. Decentrali…
Sorry but you are full of shit. Centralization is not digitization. Centralization is relying on the use of coercion. It's a /central/ source of truth. The identity system we've been stuck with since WW1 will finally be replaced with something decentralized and approaching fair thanks to digitization. What we're lacking is the software that gives individuals self sovereignty.
I’d love to have a constructive conversation rather than resorting to base name calling.
I mean to say that centralization is caused by digitization because of the financial incentives, not that centralization IS digitization. And all of our current systems are systems of legacy control.
In fact I generally agree with you. Generally the identity system will be interrupted, and at the core digitization of the legacy system will happen. I’m simply saying that there will be further consolidation and centralization first and it will take longer than most people think due to the powerful financial interests involved.
To put it in your own words, I generally believe we will have to go through a economics “with the tragedy” before we get to the part where the tragedy gets removed.
Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it
#106Centralisation and decentralization goes in cycles. When we centralized too much, it breaks down, and the cycle repeats.
The pace at which this happens is determined by the barriers and limits of the context. This is why centralists want to have big barriers such as proprietary technology and government backing by laws and other force that protects their monopoly. To create a more dynamic environment in which we can swing back to more decentralized when a central hub becomes too powerful, we need to support communities and open protoco…
Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry but you are full of shit. Centralization is not digitization. Centralization is relying on the use of coercion. It's a /central/ source of truth. The identity system we've been stuck with since WW1 will finally be replaced with something decentralized and approaching fair thanks to digitization. What we're lacking is the software that gives individuals self sovereignty.
That’s not a very kind response. I’d love to have a constructive conversation rather than resorting to base name calling. I mean to say that centralization is caused by digitization because of the financial incentives, not that centralization IS digitization. And all of our current systems are systems of legacy control. In fact I generally agree with you. Generally the identity system will be interrupted, and at the…
Glad to hear your justifications. They are more persuasive than the initial representation.
Thank you for engaging the constructive conversation.. now w.r.t. the power of financial interests, I think it is overestimated and easily shattered but we will just have to see what happens.
Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it
#108Centralization and decentralization happen in waves as a natural result of ossification and complexity growth. As an example, IBM was once the dominant market force in computation. As the business grew and became increasingly byzantine, it was unable to respond to market changes or market demands in any meaningful way, and therefore the market became decentralized. This happened to Microsoft. If Apple continues on it…
"Most things are not forever" https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/what-is-pfas There.. Fixed that for you
Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it
#109Centralisation versus decentralisation should not be an either/or style debate.
It is possible to have both types of networks. Each can be valuable in different contexts.
For example, we need to have networks for noncommercial purposes as well as commercial ones. Small networks, e.g., L2/3 overlays, managed by their users can be useful for noncommercial purposes. Large networks managed by central third party authorities can be useful for commercial purposes.
With respect to noncommercial internetworks, one lesson of The Internet is that large scales ones are inherently disadvantaged. Besides the problem of proprietary, non-compatible protocols mentioned in the top comment, centralised "infinite scale" networks also become infested with "tech" companies, commercial intermediaries, who usurp them as honeypots for commercial and political advertisers.^1
On "The Internet", noncommercial network use, e.g., communicating with friends and family, is being compromised for commercial purposes by a relatively small number of single, central authority websites. Hundreds of millions of people with small networks of friends and family, e.g., less than 100 nodes, are being unecessarily intermediated by central "hubs" that collect data and serve targeted advertising and/or sell advertising services.
If those smaller networks were not connected nor managed by a third parties, then the attraction of injecting advertising into peoples' noncommercial internet use falls dramatically. The incentive for, and feasibiity of, data collection is similarly reduced. Those are features, not bugs.
Whereas for commercial uses, e.g., sales of goods and services, inter-business communications, etc., small networks are far less valuable. For these applications, we need networks that scale to large sizes. Arguably that utility has already been proven as successful. Advertising and data collection may be appropriate in the commercial context.
1. The irony is that The Internet was supposed to be a means of disintermediation. In some contexts, that is true. In others, it has allowed for the greatest level of intermediation in history.
Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it
#110Centralization is better than decentralization in 99% of cases, but the 1% is really important: when the centralized system fails, or is controlled by an adversary (e.g. malicious government). IMO decentralized internet (and social media and currency) should be possible, routinely tested, and readily-available when the centralized internet fails. But a neutral, trusted, central server will is basically always preferr…
> Centralization is better than decentralization in 99% of cases This is way overgeneralizing, and not remotely true for a large swathe of things. Centralized systems are actually less efficient unless the central agent is a party to every interaction due to the nature of the system. If the central agent is only a party by virtue of the imposed structure, you've created overhead, made the system difficult to change,…
Take the set of all systems conceivably used by human beings. Email providers, social networks, parent-teacher associations, dungeons and dragons campaign groups, neighborhood watches, everything.
Now, classify each of those things into one of two groups: either "more like the USPS" or "more like national economies". What is the ratio of "USPS-alike" groups, versus "national economy-ish" groups?
What does the obvious answer to this question -- 100% vs. 0% -- tell you about the relevance of centralization vs. decentralization?