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Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it

subconscious.substack.com

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Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it

#91
We centralize because we created/use a economical system where that such system behaviour is promoted.

We could also use a system which demotes or outright forbids too much centralization.

So it's not inevitable at all.

Or at least it isn't if you just look at how people are likely to interpret the title, reading "centralization" as in "central to the whole system".

Local increases in "centralization" are normal, e.g. people centralize in cities, but calling that centralization is misleading IMHO. They are local aggregates not central to the whole system.

More important if we e.g. look at (biological) nature centralization is nearly always the prelude of collapse and anything more then very localized centralization is often an indication for potential problems.

So we probably should change our system to demote too much centralization.

Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it

#92
post #87

The point of open protocols is not that there will actually be many providers, but that one could switch providers easily if they do something fishy. It's about the threat, and what can happen on margin. Keeping a sword dangling over the monopolist's head is reasonable.

You are correct. The greatest threat to someone providing a service based on an open protocol is that users might pick up and leave. Consequently, a service provider will plow enormous resources into differentiating their service, and generating other lock-in effects, so the users find it hard to leave. A popular open source protocol is actually the perfect playing field for a would-be monopolist. The monopolist can…

> A popular open source protocol is actually the perfect playing field for a would-be monopolist.

Whereas when there's no popular open source protocol, the OSS ecosystem upgrades itself fast, like a cheetah? :P Whatever mental model you're using here might just be going over my head and I'd appreciate you being more explicit about it

Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it

#93

That is, until the ease, quality and utility of fully decentralized systems exceeds the pain of the fragility and abusiveness of the current centralized offerings. The power of unenclosable carriers offered by breakthroughs such as Holochain https://holo.host is breathtaking.

You aren’t addressing the points the article made about efficiency and other selection pressures.

Classic peer-to-peer networks have low connectivity. Scale-free networks are resilient (most nodes don't matter), but are vulnerable to attack (kill a few "hubs").

DHTs (such as underlying Holochain) are scale-free, but also automatically heal from attacks.

Most importantly, they operate essentially unimpeded even in the face of successful network partitioning attacks.

All while each "agent" (You) retain complete cryptographic control of your data and identity.

And, if/when you want to migrate your data (exfiltrate), re-package the functionality (create new clients, or integrate multiple networks), or even completely fork the entire application -- all of this is at your fingertips, and no entity can stop you.

Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it

#94
Oh hey super cool, I think these are what you call small-world networks which show up in a lot of different places.

I’m actually reading a chapter right now on the architecture of the brain that talks a lot about this in the context of our neural connections: Chapter 2 or Cycle 2 “Structure Defines Function”[0].

[0]: https://neurophysics.ucsd.edu/courses/physics_171/Buzsaki%20...

Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not defending registrars/registries per se, but... > A domain isn't much more than a key/value pair in a small database. No, it's often a huge investment and important part of security approaches (certificates, validation, email, etc.) > You're paying never-ending rent to them for them to not go out of their way to delete your entry. Yes, you're paying them to not update that value to point to someone else's serv…

Keys don't "leak" but of course they can be stolen - like any real product. If you spend $40 million on your Van Gogh, and it's stolen - that's not going to be a happy moment. Fortunately keeping a key safe is much easier than keeping a physical asset safe. And you'd only need to access your archive the times when you need to change the IP for your domain or are otherwise transferring/selling it.

Keys can easily leak; there was a high-profile example not so long ago where a bunch of GPG public keys shared factors due to a bug in generation.

Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it

#96
post #62

Plug: I'm working with the author on a decentralized protocol for networked thought and a companion browser called Subconscious. We're a very young project and just getting off the ground. If you're interested in topics like the one in the article, all our work is open source and we love getting into it with folks on Github or our Discord (link in the README): https://github.com/subconsciousnetwork/noosphere

yet you choose two closed source centralized solutions for your project: Github and Discord

Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it

#97

And yet our economic and social systems have never been more decentralised...

Can you elaborate?

In my modern, urban, life I have 1000 different options for my food supply or friendships or housing or employment. Aside from a very unengaged, far away, government there is no centralised entity in my life. And even that I can replace by moving country.

100 years ago, there was one major employer in my area (east London), a few grocers and bakers, people's activities were tightly controlled and linked to family status. Participation in all elements of economic and social life was tightly controlled by a small clique of economic, clerical and political elites.

People think about centralisation as a corporate or government thing and a unitary national authority. But it's not. It's part of every later of society. When we lived in tribes, the chief had totally centralised power over almost everything. Villages were the same with an overlord somewhere you'd never see. Towns were lighter but still quite centralised. Modern cities and urban life is about as decentralized as it is possible to be.

That's my understanding of centralisation. Sorry it's not better explained.

Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it

#98
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct. The greatest threat to someone providing a service based on an open protocol is that users might pick up and leave. Consequently, a service provider will plow enormous resources into differentiating their service, and generating other lock-in effects, so the users find it hard to leave. A popular open source protocol is actually the perfect playing field for a would-be monopolist. The monopolist can…

> A popular open source protocol is actually the perfect playing field for a would-be monopolist. At first I thought "email seems a good example of this: most people don't want to leave Google, I don't want to leave FastMail"... but then I remembered that I could just leave FastMail and take my email to Google. Which proves the upthread point about the open protocol being a safety net for users. Can you talk about so…

Email is the paradigmatic example. You can export your mailbox and use `pine` if that's your jam. But in the real world, most users of Gmail will depend on at least one feature of Gmail that isn't easily replicable elsewhere.

Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it

#99
post #26

And yet our economic and social systems have never been more decentralised...

Yea, not really. The wild west was wild. People used to make up their own banknotes, there were fraud and schemes everywhere. We take for granted that our bank won't steal our deposits, that's a new concept. Most of that is derived from some degree of 'centralization' - that said - it's definitely not this 1-to-many scheme that the language implies. The Fed has immense power, but is not really in your business. You c…

What your describing is just a different, more local form of centralisation. If your bank manager gets to refuse to give you your money, he has all the power. That's very very centralised, even if it's centralised in him, not in a CEO or a president.

I have 4 accounts at 4 different banks. If one of them refused to hand the cash over, even without any redress, I have 3 other accounts to fall back on. So my life is much less centralised than Wild West Bill.

The same applies to almost all elements of life. Back in the wild west, no one would date you if you didn't go to church. The priest literally had centralised power to refuse you a partner (and God help you if you were gay or the wrong colour or from a "bad" family). Today no one knows or cares. Very very decentralized. Ditto employment or housing or crime and punishment.

Re: Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it

#100
Centralization is just the impact of digitization. Digitization is inevitable, because efficiencies are tremendous.

Then you will have a battle for control of centralization centered on verifiable identity, kyc and centered ultimately around financial system control, which is the center use case of centralized identity platforms.

All incentives during this phase are centralization, consolidation and scale. Decentralization efforts will be carefully controlled and excluded by very powerful interests. Financial incentives will prevent meaningful adoption.

The carrot will initially be digital money centered on banking directly in the Federal Reserve. Those licenses have been issues for several years and the direction is clear.

There is a lot of carrot left to fuel the consolidation phase, and as economic conditions change and global conditions degrade people will embrace centralized solutions in the short term.

Then you will have an interruption to the central control systems which will lead to decentralized systems.

It will take much longer than people realize for this cycle to play out. We’re still in the consolidation phase. I’m a huge believer in decentralized systems, but like self-driving cars, it’s less of a technology problem and more of an autocratic and powerful interest story.

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