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Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

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Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#71

Post by rcarmo »

MisterTea wrote: post #55
irusensei wrote: post #49

Surprised that OP managed to disable secure boot (implies there is a normal UEFI boot style firmware), managed to at least attempt to boot certain Linux versions and got OpenBSD working. Seriously I thought this thing was going to be locked to the bone or restricted by black magic arcane hardware like the M1. Color me (pleasantly) surprised.

> Surprised that OP managed to disable secure boot (implies there is a normal UEFI boot style firmware) Windows RT tablets had UEFI/ACPI. I Assume it was easier to bolt Intel baggage onto Arm machines so they didn't have to change core windows kernel components which are probably deeply anchored to the PC architecture.

I haven't tracked Windows ARM beyond the IoT editions, but you are mostly right. I see it as good re-use of something that makes complete sense if you want to match Intel configuration and hardware security options.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#72

Post by bayindirh »

thfuran wrote: post #50
bayindirh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trusting your experience, can you please give me examples to OEMs which support Linux on their customer accessible hardware by default for the last two decades, and can you also detail on which devices we run Linux mainly for our daily needs, and what these devices are designed and certified for? Of course not every developer is a UNIX developer. I don't expect that. But, I just need an example for a device which I c…

You refuse to buy from a company that hasn't been selling linux-focused hardware for several decades? Do you think that's the right approach for getting companies to enter that market? I personally don't think many companies in the space are much interested in a 20 year ROI.

No. Instead I buy highly curated, cutting edge DIY systems. These systems come with rough edges, which are smoothed over in a couple of years, and I use the system with all of its features for seven years or so.

Because all of the desktop systems provided the big manufacturers are either not Linux ready or very limited in hardware & configuration flexibility or both (most of the time).

Since the systems are not Linux friendly, I always rolled my own from components which are designed to work with Windows.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#73

Post by bayindirh »

pjmlp wrote: post #51
bayindirh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trusting your experience, can you please give me examples to OEMs which support Linux on their customer accessible hardware by default for the last two decades, and can you also detail on which devices we run Linux mainly for our daily needs, and what these devices are designed and certified for? Of course not every developer is a UNIX developer. I don't expect that. But, I just need an example for a device which I c…

Tuxedo and System 76 come to mind, as lots of local OEM vendors. My Asus 1215B netbook for travel purposes has been sold with Linux on it.

Tuxedo and System76 are nice. Too bad that I don't live in the US. It's literally impossible to find such system here. So I always had to roll my own.

Netbooks are nice devices, but they were never intended for developers.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#74

Post by bayindirh »

thfuran wrote: post #53
bayindirh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many do applaud the people who jailbreak iOS, unlock game consoles and android phones by major manufacturers, reverse engineer systems to add features they need or repurpose old/legacy or bleeding edge systems to do what they need. We everyday try to convince people that hacking is not malicious by nature, but means to make things do things which are not designed to do out of the box. Every day, everywhere, incl. thi…

>Many do applaud the people who jailbreak iOS, Yeah, but not people whining that iphones don't run Ubuntu out of the box.

Instead they skip the hardware and root their Android devices. Many people would run another mobile OS on their iOS devices if the process was easier.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#75

Post by bayindirh »

jaywalk wrote: post #65
wilsonnb3 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because according to Microsoft themselves, "Microsoft ♥ Linux"

Ok, sure. Does that mean they have to support Linux on every device they put out? Why not complain that they don't support Linux on Xbox?

No, being an ethical company they shouldn't actively hinder it. Linux people will give the necessary effort to support it.

No manufacturer ever openly supported Linux in their consumer systems, and never supported Linux in their professional lines (ThinkPad, Compaq NX, EliteBook, XPS, etc.) openly, to not sour their relations with Microsoft.

Linux happened to work by miracle because of well laid out hardware and high quality BIOS implementations. In fact, they were vetting the hardware/software to be compatible with Linux, but never acknowledged it.

Microsoft is trying to close that hole by forcing secure boot and retiring 3rd party CA.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#76

Post by bayindirh »

bitwize wrote: post #59
flyinghamster wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future. > People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party CA slowly, or making secure boot permanent step by step I've long thought WSL and friends were a stalking horse for precisely the sort of locked-down environment I hate, and I've been expecting this incremental approach ever s…

About 10 or 12 years ago I said that the future of Linux on the desktop is as a VM running under a Windows hypervisor. It took longer than expected but that future is within sight.

This is a very bleak future to be honest.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#77

Post by bayindirh »

kenjackson wrote: post #56
bayindirh wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an ARM platform sold by Microsoft. It's supporting Windows alright, but it's a hardware platform at the end of the day. Dev kits are unlimited/unlocked machines by historical definition. They should allow experimentation. Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future. People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party C…

> Dev kits are unlimited/unlocked machines by historical definition. Wait, what? That seems to be very wrong, at least in my experience. Going back to the original Sega Dev Kits and the Atari Jaguar Dev Kit, and now to the XBox and PS dev kits -- none of those make it easy to run whatever you want. In my experience Dev Kits are targeted toward a specific set of use cases. And they're meant to enable those -- anything…

If we're putting this Dev kit to the same category with non-general computing devices' dev kits, the outlook becomes a much more bleak:

So, Windows is not a general computing OS and the platform running Windows is not a general computing device anymore.

So, we're ending the era of most ubiquitous general computing platform (PC), and the general computing itself, and converting Windows to a firmware for a very closed platform.

Acknowledging and accepting this is a great step forward for walled gardens and a huge step backwards for us.

I for one don't welcome our computer controlling, platform limiting, Linux loving overlords.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#79

Post by kenjackson »

bayindirh wrote: post #77
kenjackson wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dev kits are unlimited/unlocked machines by historical definition. Wait, what? That seems to be very wrong, at least in my experience. Going back to the original Sega Dev Kits and the Atari Jaguar Dev Kit, and now to the XBox and PS dev kits -- none of those make it easy to run whatever you want. In my experience Dev Kits are targeted toward a specific set of use cases. And they're meant to enable those -- anything…

If we're putting this Dev kit to the same category with non-general computing devices' dev kits, the outlook becomes a much more bleak: So, Windows is not a general computing OS and the platform running Windows is not a general computing device anymore. So, we're ending the era of most ubiquitous general computing platform (PC), and the general computing itself, and converting Windows to a firmware for a very closed…

Windows is a general computing OS. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's not. Even in the article it states that WSL2 seemed to run fine.

The issue is if the DevKit is intended for any and everything. My point is that they never were. Were the original iPhone dev kits set up to easily run Windows Mobile? Are car devkits that can accomodate Apple Car Play or Android Auto, easily able to run their Windows equivalent?

All these kits have platforms in mind when building them and are tested to support them. Anything above and beyond is use at your own risk.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#80

Post by justsomehnguy »

trelane wrote: post #61
pjmlp wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tuxedo and System 76 come to mind, as lots of local OEM vendors. My Asus 1215B netbook for travel purposes has been sold with Linux on it.

> My Asus 1215B netbook for travel purposes has been sold with Linux on it. Too soon! I miss the netbook days. Too bad Microsoft killed them.

Can you rlaborate why do you think MS killed them?

For me it was a shitty hardware (Intel Atoms coupled with slooow HDDs or tiny and slow eMMC SSDs) with the market eaten by smartphones (for always on Internet connectivity) and iPads/tablets for anything requiring a bigger screen but not yet a full notebook.

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