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Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

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Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#41

Post by justsomehnguy »

belltaco wrote: post #18

I really enjoyed the post till this: > Whilst I enjoy this kind of tinkering, it was disappointing that a "Dev Kit", built for developers can neither boot Linux, nor enable a custom Linux Kernel for WSL2. > What's that I hear Hacker News and Reddit cry? "It's a Dev Kit for Windows, you moron!" That may be the case, but Microsoft "Loves Linux", and clearly has worked hard to make WSL2 available out of the box on these…

> and Microsoft is losing money on the ... hardware as well

I prefer to use 'not earning' in this situations. This device were never intended to bring money directly in the first place and anything successful [developed with the help of this device] can bring thousands and millions of revenue. It's investing for a revenue multiplier.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#42

Post by thfuran »

bayindirh wrote: post #34
pjmlp wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is your interpretation, not Microsoft's. "Windows Dev Kit 2023 (code name “Project Volterra”) is the latest Arm device built for Windows developers with a Neural Processing Unit (NPU) that provides best-in-class AI computing capacity, multiple ports, and a stackable design for desktops and rack deployment. Purpose-built with everything you need to develop, debug, and test native Windows apps for Arm." https://le…

And the text you quoted is Microsoft's interpretation (or marketing text) of the hardware they're selling. We repurpose many purpose built things for other ends. People called as hackers for doing that back in the day, and we applauded them. Why the change now?

I don't think many have ever applauded people complaining that products designed, marketed, and sold for one purpose are not fit for some other purpose, but rather for making them work anyways.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#43

Post by bayindirh »

thfuran wrote: post #42
bayindirh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the text you quoted is Microsoft's interpretation (or marketing text) of the hardware they're selling. We repurpose many purpose built things for other ends. People called as hackers for doing that back in the day, and we applauded them. Why the change now?

I don't think many have ever applauded people complaining that products designed, marketed, and sold for one purpose are not fit for some other purpose, but rather for making them work anyways.

Many do applaud the people who jailbreak iOS, unlock game consoles and android phones by major manufacturers, reverse engineer systems to add features they need or repurpose old/legacy or bleeding edge systems to do what they need.

We everyday try to convince people that hacking is not malicious by nature, but means to make things do things which are not designed to do out of the box.

Every day, everywhere, incl. this very site. Which is called Hacker News, BTW.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#44

Post by bayindirh »

pjmlp wrote: post #38
bayindirh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the text you quoted is Microsoft's interpretation (or marketing text) of the hardware they're selling. We repurpose many purpose built things for other ends. People called as hackers for doing that back in the day, and we applauded them. Why the change now?

For starters those hackers can start by supporting OEMs that care about doing business selling hardware with Linux, develop the next PI clone with RISC-V or something. Not every developer is a UNIX developer, and not every piece of hardware has to run a POSIX clone.

Trusting your experience, can you please give me examples to OEMs which support Linux on their customer accessible hardware by default for the last two decades, and can you also detail on which devices we run Linux mainly for our daily needs, and what these devices are designed and certified for?

Of course not every developer is a UNIX developer. I don't expect that.

But, I just need an example for a device which I can buy for the last two decades and which is primarily designed for running Linux, and accessible by ordinary developers (i.e. not costing two kidneys and an arm, has a home/portable form factor, and is serially produced).

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#45

Post by flyinghamster »

bayindirh wrote: post #15
orthoxerox wrote: post #13

> What's that I hear Hacker News and Reddit cry? "It's a Dev Kit for Windows, you moron!" That may be the case, but Microsoft "Loves Linux", and clearly has worked hard to make WSL2 available out of the box on these devices. If people start buying MS Dev Kits to run Linux CI agents on them this defeats the whole purpose of having a dev kit: getting more people to write programs on and for Windows 11 on ARM.

That's an ARM platform sold by Microsoft. It's supporting Windows alright, but it's a hardware platform at the end of the day. Dev kits are unlimited/unlocked machines by historical definition. They should allow experimentation. Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future. People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party C…

> Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future.

> People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party CA slowly, or making secure boot permanent step by step

I've long thought WSL and friends were a stalking horse for precisely the sort of locked-down environment I hate, and I've been expecting this incremental approach ever since XP started requiring activation. However, I'd notice that this particular bit of kit doesn't forbid you from disabling "Secure" Boot. It sounds more to me like there's some sort of kernel/device tree issue here and not Microsoft being dickish (at least directly).

I'd suspect that Microsoft will support Linux on it in much the way Apple "supports" Linux on M1 hardware, that is, "We won't stop you, but you're on your own, and if you break it you own both pieces."

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#47

Post by bayindirh »

flyinghamster wrote: post #45
bayindirh wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an ARM platform sold by Microsoft. It's supporting Windows alright, but it's a hardware platform at the end of the day. Dev kits are unlimited/unlocked machines by historical definition. They should allow experimentation. Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future. People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party C…

> Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future. > People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party CA slowly, or making secure boot permanent step by step I've long thought WSL and friends were a stalking horse for precisely the sort of locked-down environment I hate, and I've been expecting this incremental approach ever s…

Not providing the device tree for including in the Linux kernel is breaking by negligence in my book.

Looks like ARM and RISC-V will be the next open frontier for Linux in the near future. x86 is going to the way of intense lock down in an accelerating pace.

ARM also supports these technologies, but at least it'll be more accessible and more diverse, I hope.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#49

Post by irusensei »

Surprised that OP managed to disable secure boot (implies there is a normal UEFI boot style firmware), managed to at least attempt to boot certain Linux versions and got OpenBSD working. Seriously I thought this thing was going to be locked to the bone or restricted by black magic arcane hardware like the M1.

Color me (pleasantly) surprised.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#50

Post by thfuran »

bayindirh wrote: post #44
pjmlp wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For starters those hackers can start by supporting OEMs that care about doing business selling hardware with Linux, develop the next PI clone with RISC-V or something. Not every developer is a UNIX developer, and not every piece of hardware has to run a POSIX clone.

Trusting your experience, can you please give me examples to OEMs which support Linux on their customer accessible hardware by default for the last two decades, and can you also detail on which devices we run Linux mainly for our daily needs, and what these devices are designed and certified for? Of course not every developer is a UNIX developer. I don't expect that. But, I just need an example for a device which I c…

You refuse to buy from a company that hasn't been selling linux-focused hardware for several decades? Do you think that's the right approach for getting companies to enter that market? I personally don't think many companies in the space are much interested in a 20 year ROI.
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