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Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

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Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#151
post #13

I disagree. Your points aren't necessarily wrong, but they ignore one big factor. Twitter chooses what content to promote to people. I could use Twitter quite happily not knowing about the latest "scandal" in, say, the knitting world. But Twitter actively promotes that content to me - either with the "trending" sidebar or by showing me content that it thinks will increase my engagement. That is a technical problem. H…

I agree with you, but I'd say this is not a "technical" problem because it's not the engineers who screwed up--they correctly implemented the algorithms they were asked to create.

The problem is with the business model. If you only make money off ads, then you need these dark pattern algorithms to survive as a company.

Taking Twitter private gives the company space to come up with a better business model. But there is no guarantee that they'll find one.

But I certainly hope they do: The Fourth Estate used to have a diverse revenue source (ads, classifieds, subscriptions, etc.) but software ate their business model and now all they have left is ads. All those dark patterns are also affecting mainstream media, and unless we come up with a better model, we'll be stuck with clickbait and deliberately inflammatory content.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#152
post #32

Hacker News has a great community, features informative discourse, and doesn't suffer from the ailments that you list (or suffers from them much less than Twitter). Therefore we should invite all Twitter users to join our healthy community. Everybody wins. Edit: I hoped it would be obvious, but the second sentence of this comment was supposed to be sarcastic.

How is HN viable? There is zero revenue only cost right?

Message boards as PR + a recruitment feeder system for a larger organization seems viable.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#153
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you surface engaging content without also surfacing harmful / polarising / abusive content? But the most engaging content is also the most harmful / polarizing / abusive! "The algorithm" is mostly humans clicking buttons.

> "The algorithm" is mostly humans clicking buttons. Actually, the algorithm is not the button clicks, but the code that interprets those button clicks. I don't think many people notice this, but HN gives a bonus to longer posts, in terms of keeping them at the top. It's not just the upvotes that determine which votes surface to the top. There are probably other signals that are inputted into the algorithm, as well,…

You work on a forum - it is by design limited to some area(s) of focus. Twitter is not like that.

I think forums are great. I think forums are better than Twitter, because they can have some focus. I think social media probably doesn't scale, because social groups will always surface conflict.

I think you can design those algorithms if you know what area(s) your community cares about. Twitter cares about everything.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#154
The problem with any global platform where anyone can see anyone else's post and interact with it will be the same. We are humans, with different norms, cultural contexts, lived experiences, senses of humour, etc.

When we try to solve this from any lens, whether it's "we should have egalitarian values" or "free speech" or "safety," we end up compounding this problem.

While I think there are some things that are terrible and objectionable, there are other people who clearly feel differently. Does that make them "right?" and thus I need to be subjected to it? No. Does that make me then get to decide what is right?

When we put people with such different views into the same space, we incentivise those who get attention from creating a rise or reaction from the people who are different, so it's not as simple as 'just don't look at or follow what you don't like.'

There isn't a way to magic OR tech our way out of this.

To me, an optimistic view of the future internet is one in which we find small communities, and spend our time in them, even if other people think they are terrible.

There's a paradox when it comes to how 'echo chambers' work. It turns our that when we feel seen, when we have an actual sense of belonging from knowing others (not one from aligning with this or that "side") we simply become less prone to polarization and anti-social behaviour. What has caused the current problems isn't people hanging out and agreeing, it's putting people in contexts where they feel like they need to signal disagreement or agreement to people who they don't align with (to be 'acceptable to ones they do align with), even to the point where they are agreeing or disagreeing with things that make literally no sense.

So if you are thinking about re-building a global platform, please reconsider and imagine what it might look like if you spent the time you do now on Twitter actually talking to someone or extending a welcoming space.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#155
post #127
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone takes shortcuts these days so by Godwin's law directly calling the other person on the internet with which you disagree a nazi is peak optimization /s On a serious note I think the problem is actually the heavy moderation and algorithmic bubble creation. Then you had certain famous and controversial people who operated above all bubbles and the different bubble started clashing. The only way I see to fix thi…

> disagreeing but supporting that someone should be able voice their opinion anyway It's not just "disagreement" but the death threats, slurs, allegations of "grooming", racism, libel, and simple fraud (especially involving cryptocurrency). Heck, Musk himself posted (and deleted shortly afterwards) libel about Pete Pelosi.

If it isn't a crime or spam then it is in fact disagreement.

There is no inherent different from calling someone a "racist" or "nazi" to calling someone a "groomer". On Twitter these "slurs" are used by different sides (bubbles) but other than that there is no difference.

It might be a baseless allegation or there could be more to it but either way it is clearly an opinion and disagreeing is fine no need to prevent anyone from voicing it.

>Musk himself posted (and deleted shortly afterwards) libel about Pete Pelosi.

I would assume he was being sarcastic by posting an obvious "whack source" with a silly rather obvious made up story. But it went over peoples head so he removed it. (But that is just my interpretation)

But whatever it was, why does it bother you? What exactly is so horrible about posting something "wrong" and deleting it? What is so hard about the concept of allowing people to be wrong about things? Where does the "entitlement" to demand people to get everything right come from? You don't apply this standard to yourself don't you? And if you are wrong about something would you rather want people to tell you/debunk your claim or would you want your "wrong think" to just be removed?

I've yet to see that horrible combination of letters that is too dangerous to face the scrutiny of people and calling it out. Lame slurs certainly dont pose any threat to a stable individual and I dont think we should adapt to the unstable that just make everyone more and more intolerant.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#156
post #30

I ran an official fan site once, for an EA title of all things. Doing this I learned some neat tricks to limit the amount of administration required. One thing that stuck was that there is a huge benefit to maintaining a specific section for garbage posts. Sticky threads existed titled: Potentially offensive/spam? Post it here. Everyone used it and followed the very few rules of the spam board. I rarely had to move a…

That sounds like an application of an old aphorism I once heard: "every good filing system has a 'miscellaneous' folder".

Could maybe call it the Godel folder :)

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#157
post #30

I ran an official fan site once, for an EA title of all things. Doing this I learned some neat tricks to limit the amount of administration required. One thing that stuck was that there is a huge benefit to maintaining a specific section for garbage posts. Sticky threads existed titled: Potentially offensive/spam? Post it here. Everyone used it and followed the very few rules of the spam board. I rarely had to move a…

The issue with this is that the "garbage" posts are the ones that maximize engagement. Twitter and all the other social media sites are showing them on purpose. They're trying to maximize engagement, why would they decide to quarantine the most engaging posts?

> why would they decide to quarantine the most engaging posts?

Maybe as a private company, they can start to think beyond shallow, short term metrics.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#158
post #132
post #14

I used to agree with you until I created a new Twitter account from scratch. I'm not American and I specifically put non-political things in my interests. Yet, the second I signed up I got the following: 1. A notification about a smug reply a rando made to a Republican Congressman. 2. Posts from a meme page with a Pepe the frog avatar showing homeless people fighting in San Francisco. 3. Somebody I don't follow accus…

And the main motivation for maximizing engagement is selling ad space. It seems that ads have become a major net negative to society.

Not to mention the people who have built their careers, personality, and livelihoods on that engagement. "Thought leaders" and "engagement grifters" are a very new (in the digital sense) and very real thing. And we can't forget the professional advocates whose job consists only of shaming, berating, and victimhood.

It's a tough pill to reconcile; make money at the expense of toxicity or find a revenue model that's benevolent. It'll be interesting to see if Twitter changes.

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#159
post #14

I used to agree with you until I created a new Twitter account from scratch. I'm not American and I specifically put non-political things in my interests. Yet, the second I signed up I got the following: 1. A notification about a smug reply a rando made to a Republican Congressman. 2. Posts from a meme page with a Pepe the frog avatar showing homeless people fighting in San Francisco. 3. Somebody I don't follow accus…

When I first joined Instagram in ~2014, after a little bit I started getting tons of incel/RW suggestions in explorer and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why. I mostly followed my IRL friends, some environmental groups, and a couple of musicians.

One day I was messing around and learned you can apparently favorite/save (I can't remember anymore what they call it), and I had saved a post praising Vladimir Putin. I couldn't remember ever seeing it much more favoriting it, but as soon as I got rid of it, the algorithm slowly stopped suggesting far-right content.

The actual technology plays a major role in creating polarization

Re: Tell HN: The issues of Twitter are not a technical problem to solve

#160
I disagree, though not entirely. You are right about it not being a tech problem at the core. However, tech can easily enable and augment and make the human solutions possible.

Technically, users could be using better tools to manage their interactions.

In a human sense, there is something often overlooked, and that is our current norms do very little to educate people about their options when it comes to speech they don't like.

By far the number one response is righteous indignation and that is by far the most likely wrong thing to do.

People can ignore, mute, block, and potentially use other tools to be created. One handy tool would be to pause for period of time, say an hour, day, week, month, etc... there are others.

A core realization many have yet to have is conversations go bad when we let them go bad!

To that end, people can respond with humor, questions, redirect to topic at hand and more!

The power to do that comes by weighing speech. Consider getting called an ass by a clown. Who cares? They are a clown and that exchange is as laughable as it is useless!

So that is the first thing. We need to weigh speech and gain strength from that. No need to respond from a wounded or harmed point of view. Just how harmful can drivel from someone we don't really know be? Answer is none. We just do not have to take the bait.

When we take ownership of our interactions instead of assuming an entity like Twitter being able to take on that role (it can't)[0], great things happen! One of those is understanding others better. Another is people talking to or with, not AT or PAST one another.

[0] No entity can take that role and leave us with realistic speech in most cases.

What happens is people do not want to be offended, and they expect the entity to handle that for them.

Result?

Disneyland, highly regulated, near useless and insulting[1] speech for everyone. Not good.

[1] Insulting to anyone able to manage their conversations!

Tools that encourage and empower people to do that would transform discourse. Twitter is in a prime position to make a big change in this area and have it stick.

Contact me for more on this. I am dead serious and have many years experience applying these ideas online as well as in the workplace with good results.

I cannot say it loudly enough! Each of us needs to own how we respond to others and weigh incoming speech appropriately.

So far, we have taken the lazy way and look at the mess!

Time to level up. Improve discourse and then talk to one another and reduce the polarization. Most of that is a direct artifact of seriously harmful tools in a "sick" body politic.

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