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Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

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Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#51

Post by pjmlp »

bayindirh wrote: post #44
pjmlp wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For starters those hackers can start by supporting OEMs that care about doing business selling hardware with Linux, develop the next PI clone with RISC-V or something. Not every developer is a UNIX developer, and not every piece of hardware has to run a POSIX clone.

Trusting your experience, can you please give me examples to OEMs which support Linux on their customer accessible hardware by default for the last two decades, and can you also detail on which devices we run Linux mainly for our daily needs, and what these devices are designed and certified for? Of course not every developer is a UNIX developer. I don't expect that. But, I just need an example for a device which I c…

Tuxedo and System 76 come to mind, as lots of local OEM vendors.

My Asus 1215B netbook for travel purposes has been sold with Linux on it.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#52

Post by uni_rule »

bayindirh wrote: post #47
flyinghamster wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future. > People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party CA slowly, or making secure boot permanent step by step I've long thought WSL and friends were a stalking horse for precisely the sort of locked-down environment I hate, and I've been expecting this incremental approach ever s…

Not providing the device tree for including in the Linux kernel is breaking by negligence in my book. Looks like ARM and RISC-V will be the next open frontier for Linux in the near future. x86 is going to the way of intense lock down in an accelerating pace. ARM also supports these technologies, but at least it'll be more accessible and more diverse, I hope.

I don't see it going anywhere nearly as far since their bootloader situation is still so broken. There just isn't any one size fits all solution for booting linux on arm, even on machines that do have open bootloades. At that point it only works if the manufactueres explicitly help to allow such a thing (or on phones they get custom recoveries), which makes it just as bad if not worse than x86's status quo.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#53

Post by thfuran »

bayindirh wrote: post #43
thfuran wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think many have ever applauded people complaining that products designed, marketed, and sold for one purpose are not fit for some other purpose, but rather for making them work anyways.

Many do applaud the people who jailbreak iOS, unlock game consoles and android phones by major manufacturers, reverse engineer systems to add features they need or repurpose old/legacy or bleeding edge systems to do what they need. We everyday try to convince people that hacking is not malicious by nature, but means to make things do things which are not designed to do out of the box. Every day, everywhere, incl. thi…

>Many do applaud the people who jailbreak iOS,

Yeah, but not people whining that iphones don't run Ubuntu out of the box.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#54

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

pjmlp wrote: post #31
belltaco wrote: post #18

I really enjoyed the post till this: > Whilst I enjoy this kind of tinkering, it was disappointing that a "Dev Kit", built for developers can neither boot Linux, nor enable a custom Linux Kernel for WSL2. > What's that I hear Hacker News and Reddit cry? "It's a Dev Kit for Windows, you moron!" That may be the case, but Microsoft "Loves Linux", and clearly has worked hard to make WSL2 available out of the box on these…

If something says it is for developers, does it have to revolve around UNIX clones as if there aren't any other kind of developers?

It's not about unix, it's about running anything and everything that you want.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#55

Post by MisterTea »

irusensei wrote: post #49

Surprised that OP managed to disable secure boot (implies there is a normal UEFI boot style firmware), managed to at least attempt to boot certain Linux versions and got OpenBSD working. Seriously I thought this thing was going to be locked to the bone or restricted by black magic arcane hardware like the M1. Color me (pleasantly) surprised.

> Surprised that OP managed to disable secure boot (implies there is a normal UEFI boot style firmware)

Windows RT tablets had UEFI/ACPI. I Assume it was easier to bolt Intel baggage onto Arm machines so they didn't have to change core windows kernel components which are probably deeply anchored to the PC architecture.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#56

Post by kenjackson »

bayindirh wrote: post #15
orthoxerox wrote: post #13

> What's that I hear Hacker News and Reddit cry? "It's a Dev Kit for Windows, you moron!" That may be the case, but Microsoft "Loves Linux", and clearly has worked hard to make WSL2 available out of the box on these devices. If people start buying MS Dev Kits to run Linux CI agents on them this defeats the whole purpose of having a dev kit: getting more people to write programs on and for Windows 11 on ARM.

That's an ARM platform sold by Microsoft. It's supporting Windows alright, but it's a hardware platform at the end of the day. Dev kits are unlimited/unlocked machines by historical definition. They should allow experimentation. Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future. People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party C…

> Dev kits are unlimited/unlocked machines by historical definition.

Wait, what? That seems to be very wrong, at least in my experience. Going back to the original Sega Dev Kits and the Atari Jaguar Dev Kit, and now to the XBox and PS dev kits -- none of those make it easy to run whatever you want.

In my experience Dev Kits are targeted toward a specific set of use cases. And they're meant to enable those -- anything else is "you're on your own".

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#57

Post by anaisbetts »

belltaco wrote: post #18

I really enjoyed the post till this: > Whilst I enjoy this kind of tinkering, it was disappointing that a "Dev Kit", built for developers can neither boot Linux, nor enable a custom Linux Kernel for WSL2. > What's that I hear Hacker News and Reddit cry? "It's a Dev Kit for Windows, you moron!" That may be the case, but Microsoft "Loves Linux", and clearly has worked hard to make WSL2 available out of the box on these…

Insane expectations. Imagine buying a brand-new Mac Mini with an extremely new processor (ARM is not like x86-64, every single SOC has its own distinct way to bring up the machine) and blaming Apple that your favorite Linux distro didn't immediately flawlessly work

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#58

Post by jaywalk »

bayindirh wrote: post #47
flyinghamster wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future. > People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party CA slowly, or making secure boot permanent step by step I've long thought WSL and friends were a stalking horse for precisely the sort of locked-down environment I hate, and I've been expecting this incremental approach ever s…

Not providing the device tree for including in the Linux kernel is breaking by negligence in my book. Looks like ARM and RISC-V will be the next open frontier for Linux in the near future. x86 is going to the way of intense lock down in an accelerating pace. ARM also supports these technologies, but at least it'll be more accessible and more diverse, I hope.

Why would they do anything to actively support Linux on a device that is explicitly meant for developing Windows applications on ARM?

They allow Secure Boot to be disabled, which is nice. Expecting anything more from them is absurd.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#59

Post by bitwize »

flyinghamster wrote: post #45
bayindirh wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an ARM platform sold by Microsoft. It's supporting Windows alright, but it's a hardware platform at the end of the day. Dev kits are unlimited/unlocked machines by historical definition. They should allow experimentation. Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future. People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party C…

> Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future. > People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party CA slowly, or making secure boot permanent step by step I've long thought WSL and friends were a stalking horse for precisely the sort of locked-down environment I hate, and I've been expecting this incremental approach ever s…

About 10 or 12 years ago I said that the future of Linux on the desktop is as a VM running under a Windows hypervisor. It took longer than expected but that future is within sight.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#60

Post by trelane »

pjmlp wrote: post #31
belltaco wrote: post #18

I really enjoyed the post till this: > Whilst I enjoy this kind of tinkering, it was disappointing that a "Dev Kit", built for developers can neither boot Linux, nor enable a custom Linux Kernel for WSL2. > What's that I hear Hacker News and Reddit cry? "It's a Dev Kit for Windows, you moron!" That may be the case, but Microsoft "Loves Linux", and clearly has worked hard to make WSL2 available out of the box on these…

If something says it is for developers, does it have to revolve around UNIX clones as if there aren't any other kind of developers?

> does it have to revolve around UNIX clones as if there aren't any other kind of developers?

The irony of saying this in the context of Windows is thick enough one could cut it and use it to build a sizeable home.

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