NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#121

Post by jedberg » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:40 PM UTC

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #114

jedberg wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is hard to convince someone they are wrong when their salary depends on being right. But I'm going to try. I've done hiring myself as a founder, so I have some experience here. > The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already hav…

>> The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. > Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already have access to back channel data. You're missing the point: the variable is the candidate , not the role. I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my ro…

> So, what if you apply for a role that turns out to be wrong for you based on my assessment of you then I should reject you so you can re-apply for the other role? That's ridiculous.

No of course not. You simply offer the better role at the higher salary. Or if they turn out to not be good, you tell them that you are going to deny them this role because they are not qualified, but you'd be happy to offer the lower role if they are interested. In fact, I'll bet this will happen a lot as a workaround for this law.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#122

Post by Patrol8394 » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:40 PM UTC

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

> employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone

They know, they know. They just don't want to be the first one to putting numbers out there, because they want to low ball as much as they can.

I clearly remember, in one of my latest interview, the recruiter mentioning an internal system of theirs that would come up with "numbers", and my numbers were way off, so they couldn't make it work.

Knowing, at least a ball park range, it would have saved me time and stress.

They must have a range in mind:

- average candidate $x - good candidate $y - awesome candidate $z

Therefore they could just ads for $x-$z signaling they won't be able to go above $z. So a candidate can at least decide if it is worth interviewing or not.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#123

Post by showerst » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:40 PM UTC

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #114

jedberg wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is hard to convince someone they are wrong when their salary depends on being right. But I'm going to try. I've done hiring myself as a founder, so I have some experience here. > The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already hav…

>> The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. > Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already have access to back channel data. You're missing the point: the variable is the candidate , not the role. I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my ro…

> I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my role, and I know that market rate for a super-star

Great, then you know the good faith range and you're good to go.

> then I should reject you so you can re-apply for the other role

In my experience this happens all the time at big corps and the government. Except it's not a rejection, just an "oh actually we have this other open job on the books that would be a better fit - let's transfer you over to that"

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#124

Post by time_to_smile » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:41 PM UTC

andrewstuart wrote: post #102

time_to_smile wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Go ask your team lead/CEO/CTO how recruiting works. I've been the team lead and talk to my team lead about this a lot and I know of no serious tech companies that don't actively think about employee retention and recruiting a huge part of which is compensation. Leadership at my company spends a serious amount of time discussing and revising our TC targets. Any company that doesn't know what "they would be willing t…

So what is the precise number you pay your senior developers? Sorry to call you out, but I simply don't believe the answer is anything but "it depends on a range of factors". Unless it is a government job, but even then, likely it depends on a range of factors, and often even government clients flex their budget to meet their recruiting goals.

I'm no longer in a management position and wouldn't post what is currently private company info on HN, but I'll tell you how it worked at literally every company I've worked at that is not a very small startup:

There is an internal document that specifies each level and the exact comp bands for each role (like all companies there is a range of salaries but it is specified, and again this is the practice a multiple companies I've worked at). There is a lower and upper bound of salary for level, target bonuses are fixed at a percent for ranges of levels and the same goes for equity grants.

The details of what defines each level of seniority is clearly spelled out in terms of typical ranges of previous experience, responsibilities of the role, reporting structure, assumed level of autonomy etc. These are also calibrated across teams at each review cycles and continually kept up to date.

During interviews there are set guidelines for how well a candidate performs given the target level of the role they are applying for an assess which level is appropriate.

This is not the same as saying

"don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone."

and

"it depends on a range of factors"

At every company that is not sub 100 employees that "range of factors" is clearly defined. I honestly have a hard time believing you've worked recruiting for any major tech company and haven't come across similarly detailed documentation regarding levels, comp bands, and evaluation of candidates.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#125

Post by joe5150 » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:41 PM UTC

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #114

jedberg wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is hard to convince someone they are wrong when their salary depends on being right. But I'm going to try. I've done hiring myself as a founder, so I have some experience here. > The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already hav…

>> The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. > Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already have access to back channel data. You're missing the point: the variable is the candidate , not the role. I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my ro…

The law doesn't say you can't offer someone a different job than they applied for.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#126

Post by tech_tuna » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:41 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #72

orev wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recruiters typically get paid a commission based on the final salary, so it’s in their interest to get you as high a salary as possible.

Much like real estate agents, their best interest is to close the deal at any price. They'll make more money getting the employer a bargain and a second req. There is a reason real estate agents homes sell for more than anyone else's -- because they know the real value of the market and have an incentive to go high when it's their own home. Recruiters are the same.

Exactly, came here to say exactly this. BTW, I don't think this in inherently evil, it's just a conflict of interests. Employer. Employee. Recruiter.

Different incentives for all three parties.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#127

Post by cmrdporcupine » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:42 PM UTC

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

Over the 2+ decades I've been working in this industry, the list of things that are expected out of an interview process just keeps growing. Intense panel interviews, coding on whiteboards, "show me your github", "do this example project", etc. Tell me your life story. What makes you passionate?

They often drag on for weeks, sometimes months, before an actual offer letter is in hand. And at the same time we're told that there's a shortage of us software engineers.

I can tell you it wasn't like this in the 90s. For better or for worse.

So don't be surprised that many of us are becoming incredulous that in addition to all of this, we can't get an upfront answer in advance about how much you will eventually pay me.

(I've also been confronted, very late in the process, with "your requested range is unreasonable because look at this compensation survey we bought from a third party" -- and that survey was full of complete lies because it listed total comp for Google L4 in my region as literally 1/2 of what I was making as an L4 at Google.)

So, I dunno, unless the job market really goes tits up and we're all suddenly begging for work, seems like your side of the industry -- the recruitment side -- needs to get its act together. I'm seeing growing dissatisfaction with the whole process and people are getting sick of the song and dance.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#128

Post by minraws » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:42 PM UTC

Good. Applying and then knowing the person on the otherside can't pay shit is a PITA

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#129

Post by NovemberWhiskey » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:42 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #121

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. > Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already have access to back channel data. You're missing the point: the variable is the candidate , not the role. I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my ro…

> So, what if you apply for a role that turns out to be wrong for you based on my assessment of you then I should reject you so you can re-apply for the other role? That's ridiculous. No of course not. You simply offer the better role at the higher salary. Or if they turn out to not be good, you tell them that you are going to deny them this role because they are not qualified, but you'd be happy to offer the lower r…

If the only way to operate realistically is to engage in some form of borderline-compliant workaround then I suggest the entire exercise is ill-conceived.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#130

Post by NovemberWhiskey » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

joe5150 wrote: post #125

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. > Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already have access to back channel data. You're missing the point: the variable is the candidate , not the role. I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my ro…

The law doesn't say you can't offer someone a different job than they applied for.

If I make up the job after meeting the candidate, is that OK?