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Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

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Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it unlawful to arrest a criminal with multiple convictions of corruption, bribery and money laundering?

Please see this post in a sibling thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33407619

> He was unlawfully investigated and judged by Sérgio Moro

The jurisdiction issue? A minor technicality that got him off the hook. He was supposed to undergo a new trial but I guess that's never gonna happen now.

We all saw the evidence. For years we watched news about this. Other politicians ratted him out. It's like every few months they'd discover a new thing this guy stole. I remember watching such a news report less than a year ago.

Are you seriously claiming he's not a criminal in spite of everything he's done because they let him go free on a technicality? I just don't know what to say anymore. I'm done. There's no point, he won.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that silly, what do you mean there's no paper record? Each machine has a print out of the total votes it has in it. These machines are also not connected to the internet. And lastly, he sure didn't have a problem with the machines for the several years he was in office, right? Only now that someone was polling better than him. I find the Brazilian electronic voting machines to be better than how we do it in th…

If the printing can’t be verified by the person right after voting, it’s useless. He did have a problem with the machines for a long time, and so did other candidates and parties. It was them who changed their stance to avoid being on the same side as Bolsonaro.

> If the printing can’t be verified by the person right after voting, it’s useless.

I don't agree with that. I'm curious about where a person can verify that their vote is actually the one counted? Because you can't in the US (whether by mail or in person).

Don't get me wrong, I think and individual printout would be great! And even better if you could go online (or somewhere) and verify that the vote counted was the one that you have a receipt for. I just don't think these improvements justify Bolsonaro's claims.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please see this post in a sibling thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33407619

> He was unlawfully investigated and judged by Sérgio Moro The jurisdiction issue? A minor technicality that got him off the hook. He was supposed to undergo a new trial but I guess that's never gonna happen now. We all saw the evidence. For years we watched news about this. Other politicians ratted him out. It's like every few months they'd discover a new thing this guy stole. I remember watching such a news report…

Are you really summarising all of that post as "The jurisdiction issue? A minor technicality that got him off the hook."?

He had his basic human right to a fair trial robbed of him.

If you think that's "a minor technicality", then we really have no common ground to argue on.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, given that the condemnation was unlawful, I imagine it’s not very hard to understand why talking about it without also speaking clearly about the unlawfulness and facts around it would be misleading to the public. This kind of partisan half-truth is what allows totalitarian governments to be successful. He was convicted in three instances, including by the supreme court. He was proven to be a criminal. People…

> The "unlawfulness" part is simply the supreme court judges finding a ridiculous excuse to allow him to run against a candidate they don't like. This kind of partisan half-truth is what allows totalitarian governments to be successful. "Lula trial in Brazil violated due process, says UN rights panel" [0][1] He was unlawfully investigated and judged by Sérgio Moro, who then followed to become Justice Minister [2] in…

> "Lula trial in Brazil violated due process, says UN rights panel" [0][1]

You have got to be joking. The UN has neither jurisdiction nor the access to the necessary information to make such a statement. This panel's opinion is worth nothing, and obtained purely as result of Brazil having a right wing president at the time, i.e., thy must take the opposite side, whatever it is, because right-wing-bad.

> The leaks make it fairly clear that the whole process was politically motivated to eliminate Lula from the race against Bolsonaro [7].

No, they don't, and no amount of linking to The Intercept will change that. They are partisan hacks trying (not very hard) to pass as independent journalists. Zero credibility whatsoever. Their leaks are a big nothingburger used as an excuse by a corrupt supreme court in order to be able to have a popular candidate that represented the establishment's interests in the election.

> It is not. The current President, chief of the executive and the Armed Forces, is the one who's being supposedly hit by these decisions.

The censorship and dictatorial actions are coming from the judiciary, against whose documented abuses of power the executive (and pretty no one) can do anything about.

The Brazilian supreme court has been playing the role of victim, judge and executor in illegal inquiries through Bolsonaro's term, with almost zero reaction from the media and the left, because the abuses are against "the right" and so they think it's a good thing. Ironically the only voices from the left denouncing the supreme court's abuses come from the Trotskyist party PCO.

> You can absolutely not call him a "criminal". That he is not, or at least it has not been proved within a fair trial that he is.

Again, he has been judged in three independent instances of the judiciary and found guilty in all of them. The sentence given by the judge you call "politically motivated" was considered low and increased by a superior instance. His people in the corruption scheme have given back millions they stole. His finance minister. People he has put in the board of state-run companies. If there was no corruption, why have they returned this money?

High profile sources? Come on, at least pretend to be arguing in good faith. Apart from "The Intercept" your other link is to "Progressive International" (Seriously? One of the members of this group is CUT, a violent labor union with deep ties to the Worker Party), which is republishing an article from "Brasil Wire", an entity tied multiple other far-left groups, who publish blatant bizarre partisan fake news on their home page.

> it's hard to not think it was electoral in nature.

It's hard to think anything at all without having seen the documentary.

Again, please stop defending censorship. It will come to bit you sooner or later.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#95

It's interesting reading these comments. Many commenters (who I assume are mostly from North America and Europe) are relieved that Lula won and seem to view Bolsonaro as a repulsive authoritarian. This view is the view that is implicitly espoused by all mainstream Western media outlets, such as the New York Times and the Guardian. However, some commenters seem to view Lula as a corrupt politician, essentially nothing…

> However, some commenters seem to view Lula as a corrupt politician, essentially nothing more than a crook. He is corrupt and a criminal. Officials actually tried to censor these facts here in Brazil. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-30/lula-wins... https://archive.ph/gINDU > Lula was a wildly popular president before accusations of wrongdoing and fiscal mismanagement resulted in the impeachment of hi…

> He walked free because of some jurisdiction bullshit and his judgement is pending retrial to this day.

Collaboration between prosecution and judges [1] is not bullshit.

Also his judgement is not pending. Some charges were dropped by the new court because there were not enough evidences and the other case is now prescribed [2].

[1] https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/04/brazil-crimi...

[2] https://oglobo.globo.com/politica/juiza-federal-do-df-reconh...

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#96
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, some commenters seem to view Lula as a corrupt politician, essentially nothing more than a crook. He is corrupt and a criminal. Officials actually tried to censor these facts here in Brazil. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-30/lula-wins... https://archive.ph/gINDU > Lula was a wildly popular president before accusations of wrongdoing and fiscal mismanagement resulted in the impeachment of hi…

> He walked free because of some jurisdiction bullshit and his judgement is pending retrial to this day. Collaboration between prosecution and judges [1] is not bullshit. Also his judgement is not pending. Some charges were dropped by the new court because there were not enough evidences and the other case is now prescribed [2]. [1] https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/04/brazil-crimi... [2] https://oglobo.gl…

> Collaboration between prosecution and judges

That's not the reason why he was cleared by the supreme court though. It says in all references it was because the court that tried him didn't have jurisdiction. The crimes didn't happen where he was tried.

> Some charges were dropped by the new court because there were not enough evidences and the other case is now prescribed

Wow.

I give up. I don't have the energy for this anymore.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was unlawfully investigated and judged by Sérgio Moro The jurisdiction issue? A minor technicality that got him off the hook. He was supposed to undergo a new trial but I guess that's never gonna happen now. We all saw the evidence. For years we watched news about this. Other politicians ratted him out. It's like every few months they'd discover a new thing this guy stole. I remember watching such a news report…

Are you really summarising all of that post as "The jurisdiction issue? A minor technicality that got him off the hook."? He had his basic human right to a fair trial robbed of him. If you think that's "a minor technicality", then we really have no common ground to argue on.

Correct, a minor technicality. His crimes didn't happen wherever it is that they tried him. A minor jurisdiction issue. Just move to the proper court or something.

> we really have no common ground to argue on

Probably not. There's no point anyway. Probably best to move on from this insanity.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#98
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He walked free because of some jurisdiction bullshit and his judgement is pending retrial to this day. Collaboration between prosecution and judges [1] is not bullshit. Also his judgement is not pending. Some charges were dropped by the new court because there were not enough evidences and the other case is now prescribed [2]. [1] https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/04/brazil-crimi... [2] https://oglobo.gl…

> Collaboration between prosecution and judges That's not the reason why he was cleared by the supreme court though. It says in all references it was because the court that tried him didn't have jurisdiction. The crimes didn't happen where he was tried. > Some charges were dropped by the new court because there were not enough evidences and the other case is now prescribed Wow. I give up. I don't have the energy for…

I understand you're tired, but I'm leaving this source for the sake of informing others:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/24/lula-judge-was...

Maybe that wasn't the final ruling that set him free, but it was a very important step into it.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is one thing the US election of 2020 showed us is that there is zero relationship between crowd/rally attendance and voter turnout for the candidate. One explanation is that voters may be enthusiastically voting "against" a particular candidate, in which case they would likely not be attending any rally or showing support in any meaningful way.

>If there is one thing the US election of 2020 showed us is that there is zero relationship between crowd/rally attendance and voter turnout for the candidate. I'm not sure if this is the strongest argument in favor of your hypothesis. In most instances it would rather be an indicator of election fraud.

No comment

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the word you're looking for is "authoritarian". All fascists are authoritarians, but not all authoritarians are fascist. A few more key characteristics of fascism: nationalism, overt anti-egalitarianism, militarism. Bolsonero is the fascist here. Lula is not.

The defining slogan of fascism is “Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State”. Bolsonaro tried to reduce the size of the state, in direct contradiction with that. Please list concrete actions by his government that can be reasonably characterized as “anti-egalitarian” or “militaristic”. In fact the military in his government was mostly used in the process of helping Venezuelan refu…

Brazilian politics aside, just because Mussolini said it doesn't make it the definition. Of course Mussolini would describe it in such a way -- it's an incredibly self-serving definition. How else is a totalitarian dictator to mask the fact that his regime is entirely about his own personal power and not some Platonic ideal called "the State"? How else is he to rally normally sensible, everyday people around a cause other than to appeal to their sense of nationalism, probably the only commonality they all share? There's a very good reason Hitler was called Fuhrer and Mussolini the Duce. It should give you a very strong clue about the important aspect of fascism that your comment tries to elide
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