US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions • Hacker News Board

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#61

Post by trention » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:27 PM UTC

willio58 wrote: post #42

arberx wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A true meritocracy wouldn't be a friendly world to live in. Think about the current state of education. Parents with resources over-optimize their kids' education because they understand the inefficiencies in the system and/or understand what it takes to become successful in our society.

Yeah this is the problem with meritocracy, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. The reason someone has merit is arguably _only_ due to external factors. You are the way you are because of your DNA and environment. You are who you are because of who your parents are and how they chose to raise you, but they are only who they are because of their parents. And that recurses all the way back to the first organisms.

>_only_ due to external factors. You are the way you are because of your DNA and environment.

Your DNA is not an "external factor". Rather, it's the most internal factor there is.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#62

Post by pueblito » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:28 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #19

timmg wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it is ? As-in, is it the right (legal) decision in your view?

No. If I were on SCOTUS I would probably vote to uphold the existing precedent.

Which precedent? The one where the 14th Amendment forbids racial discrimination, or the narrow carve out 20 years ago that has allowed it to continue in higher education?

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#63

Post by puffoflogic » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:29 PM UTC

room505 wrote: post #55

Here's a great response to how colleges can ensure diversity since this will likely get struck down. https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/20/opinion/affirmative-a... Edit: TLTR: Dump standardized college admission tests as an admissions requirement, end legacy admissions and tap corporate activism.

> The fact that we get any Black students in under-resourced neighborhoods testing within 100 points of White students, who have been prepping for the test since the eighth grade, that is a miracle of over-performance

That is disgustingly, outrageously racist.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#64

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:29 PM UTC

velavar wrote: post #57

I'm curious as to why affirmative action in the US has always been race-based and not economic-status or household income based? Asking as someone with no skin in the game; I'm merely curious if anyone has any constructive opinions on why they think economic status based affirmative action may/may not work?

> why affirmative action in the US has always been race-based and not economic-status or household income based?

We have both. We reserve the term “affirmative action” for race-based tilting. But means-based aid is also significant.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#65

Post by trention » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:29 PM UTC

room505 wrote: post #55

Here's a great response to how colleges can ensure diversity since this will likely get struck down. https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/20/opinion/affirmative-a... Edit: TLTR: Dump standardized college admission tests as an admissions requirement, end legacy admissions and tap corporate activism.

"Ensuring diversity" is not a worthwhile goal for any institution.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#66

Post by fassssst » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:29 PM UTC

kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

Equal opportunity is more important than whatever “merit” means.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#67

Post by nradov » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

awb wrote: post #48

kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

> What ever happened to access based on merit? It’s a complex problem. If the process of evaluating someone’s merits is biased or restricted in some way, then the merits are an inaccurate way of evaluating them. We’ve seen this exaggerated throughout history. If you deny groups the opportunity to learn how to read then they appear less competent based on their “merits”. When you then take those groups and give them t…

How do you define a group, and determine whether an individual is inside or outside that group?

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#68

Post by Game_Ender » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #26

We should stop differentiating people by race, but whichever side loses this particular case can take solace in the fact that it won't make a huge difference either way. Studies have shown very little difference in average long-term career outcomes between highly selective and less selective colleges, after controlling for SAT scores and high school class ranking. Let's stop fetishizing schools like Harvard.

The average person is not someone who moves the needle in society and it's not what you would target if you were a parent pushing to give you child the best achieving something remarkable. You want to give your child an outsized chance to end up the very top top of the band: successful founder a large business, national level politician, C-level executive, high successful doctor, well compensated finance professional, managing partner at a law firm. Or more crucially to be know those people and get opportunities the average person does not through their network.

If both places produce the same average outcome, then you would be crazy to not pick the place that is several times more likely to have an amazing outcome.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#69

Post by petilon » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

spoonjim wrote: post #50

I’m of two minds here. Obviously race based admissions is unfair. But Harvard isn’t trying to admit the next generation of scholars, it’s trying to admit the next generation of power. Will that generation be 75% Asian, the way a class would be if formed with standardized testing? Doesn’t seem likely.

[flagged]

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#70

Post by SV_BubbleTime » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #38

1980phipsi wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think conservatives have a monopoly on this, then take a look at some of the most important Supreme Court cases from FDR through the 1970s or so.

The Supreme Court is a political organization that likes to pretend it's something else. I think that's always been the case and I agree it isn't inherently one party or the other. That said, with the notable exception of the Warren court, SCOTUS has been conservative for its whole history.

>That said, with the notable exception of the Warren court, SCOTUS has been conservative for its whole history.

I think that depends a lot on one's perspective. If you're very far-left and support all the equity you can dream up, then yes I see how one might think that. I disagree, but still...

If that were objectively true, I don't think it's the damning claim you may have meant it to be if you consider the overall history of the USA and contributions to the world.