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US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

bbc.com

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Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#51

Post by orangepurple »

tsimionescu wrote: post #33
kennend3 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you need open heart surgery. Doctor one has a 3.9 GPA from Harvard medical. Doctor two barely passed your state's medical school Which do you want doing your operation? The "meritocracy trap" often caves into "wealth and privilege" and this is not meritocracy.

Well, someone will get either doctor. Whichever I get is essentially down to luck, so why does this question matter?

Lots of people don't care about what doctor they get. I have heard endless stories from doctors that see patients all day where so many patients don't care about their own health to the point of having limbs amputated and shrugging it off like its no big deal. Or having complications from diabetes and declining free-to-them care. Not taking medication. There are so many of these people. They seem to be mostly on Medicare from the stories. If you care about your health there are options out there unless you have to deal with the VA because of your coverage. Then you're genuinely screwed. For those that don't care about their care there are reasonable defaults available.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#52

Post by pevey »

kennend3 wrote: post #17
epgui wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened to it refers to a concept called the meritocracy trap.

Let's say you need open heart surgery. Doctor one has a 3.9 GPA from Harvard medical. Doctor two barely passed your state's medical school Which do you want doing your operation? The "meritocracy trap" often caves into "wealth and privilege" and this is not meritocracy.

I would want the one with the best track record of outcomes for the specific surgery that I needed.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#53

Post by [deleted] »

tsimionescu wrote: post #33
kennend3 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you need open heart surgery. Doctor one has a 3.9 GPA from Harvard medical. Doctor two barely passed your state's medical school Which do you want doing your operation? The "meritocracy trap" often caves into "wealth and privilege" and this is not meritocracy.

Well, someone will get either doctor. Whichever I get is essentially down to luck, so why does this question matter?

[deleted]

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#54

Post by BryanBeshore »

balozi wrote: post #29

The oral arguments are an excellent listen: - https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/live.aspx (live) - https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_audio/2... (recorded)

Fantastic links. Looking forward to listening while having lunch today.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#55

Post by room505 »

Here's a great response to how colleges can ensure diversity since this will likely get struck down.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/10/20/opinion/affirmative-a...

Edit: TLTR: Dump standardized college admission tests as an admissions requirement, end legacy admissions and tap corporate activism.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#56

Post by anotherman554 »

polski-g wrote: post #43
anotherman554 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since we're talking about surgery, wouldn't hand-eye coordination be more important than the GPA from Harvard medical?

If Harvard graded appropriately, then GPA would be a proxy for hand-eye coordination.

I don't know why you believe the purpose of medical school is to predict how good a doctor is at surgery. Most doctors aren't going to be surgeons.

I've never been to med school but my understanding is you learn how to be a doctor in residency, where there are no grades. Medical school gives you theoretical knowledge but not the practical knowledge you need to actually do the work.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#57

Post by velavar »

I'm curious as to why affirmative action in the US has always been race-based and not economic-status or household income based? Asking as someone with no skin in the game; I'm merely curious if anyone has any constructive opinions on why they think economic status based affirmative action may/may not work?

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#58

Post by kennend3 »

nradov wrote: post #44
kennend3 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you need open heart surgery. Doctor one has a 3.9 GPA from Harvard medical. Doctor two barely passed your state's medical school Which do you want doing your operation? The "meritocracy trap" often caves into "wealth and privilege" and this is not meritocracy.

Studies have shown that surgery outcomes are highly correlated with experience in that particular procedure. So if I needed a heart bypass operation, I would want the surgeon who does 5 of them every week and nothing else. Where they attended medical school is unimportant. You might have a stronger argument in other medical specialties where theory is more important. But heart surgeons are more like athletes in a way…

SO.. tell us what would allow a surgeon to start operating in the first place?

You simply presented a chicken and egg problem...

Does the mediocre surgeon get all the surgeries and therefor become excellent at it?

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#59

Post by buscoquadnary »

nradov wrote: post #26

We should stop differentiating people by race, but whichever side loses this particular case can take solace in the fact that it won't make a huge difference either way. Studies have shown very little difference in average long-term career outcomes between highly selective and less selective colleges, after controlling for SAT scores and high school class ranking. Let's stop fetishizing schools like Harvard.

That's what always gets my goat. People seem to be less concerned with actual equality and improving things and more interested in claiming symbolic prizes.

Why bother trying to make to her schools and opportunities better when what we really want is just to cash in a piece of the pie for ourselves. Another example is the push to STEM for women and minorities, it's not about actually learning the skill or contributing it's that being a coder is seem as an easy path to the good life and so we want to get in on that. If it were really about equality or income there would be more people pushing for representation in being an oil worker as those guys make great money too, but it just isn't seen as high status.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#60

Post by JumpCrisscross »

legitster wrote: post #34

> Institutions like Harvard say they consider an applicant's race as one of several factors - including economic status and religious belief - in order to build classes that accurately represent the racial and ethnic diversity of the country. I mean, this is all kind of window dressing for elite institutions to be elite, right? There are millions of people qualified to attend these university, Harvard gets to hand se…

> they could always expand the size of their enrollment

There are reasons beyond manufactured exclusivity for why this doesn’t work. College education isn’t just about students soaking up material. We need more online vocational schools where that’s the sole purpose. But let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water.

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