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Why is hydroelectricity unfashionable?

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Re: Why is hydroelectricity unfashionable?

#331

Post by kkfx »

pencilguin wrote: post #314
kkfx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hydro and nuclear need the very same turbine tech, and actually turbine are the most hi-tech part of the game, reactors demand delicate construction and testing, but behind that are not much complex. Oh, sure, IF you have a vast set of mountains and much water, let's say Norway, developing hydro is obvious . Just a bit more populated countries, let's say Swiss do want both simply because one offer good power for most…

Hydro power turbines and nukes' steam turbines are similar only in the name, and that just because both turn.

They are both build with the same industrial process, demand similar alloys, similar CFD calculus etc. Witch means: if you can build one for hydro you can build one for nuclear. If you can't for nuclear than you can't equally for hydro and vice versa.

That's why they are a big business for very few developed countries supply chain. Do NEVER forget that anything at a certain scale is a matter of know how, supply chain and raw materials. Formally knowledge is "open in science" but that's just PR, in the modern world almost without public research and public universities knowledge is power and is in private hands to a point of being a danger for the society at a whole.

Re: Why is hydroelectricity unfashionable?

#332

Post by tchaffee »

kennend3 wrote: post #192
kagakuninja wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conveniently ignoring the extreme cost of nuclear power. The power companies simply do not want to invest billions and then wait 7+ years, assuming there are no project delays or cost overruns (which there always are). Renewables and natural gas are much cheaper.

"Renewables" cost our government here in Ontario. https://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/06/07/kathleen-wynne-ran-en... They were in power for ~11 years, but thanks to their "green energy" programs they not only lost the election, they lost political party status and have yet to regain it. Renewables are not cheaper. "The FAO estimates that the renewable generation subsidy program will cost the Province a net $2.8 billion…

You gave nothing to compare those prices to so it's impossible to determine cheaper or not cheaper.

Re: Why is hydroelectricity unfashionable?

#333

Post by DocTomoe »

_h3p0 wrote: post #325
DocTomoe wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This seems like you either didn't understand what pumped storage is, or you've confused several related technologies. What adds to the confusion is that Germans - OP used a common typo that hints at his native language - casually use "water power" ("Wasserkraft") both for hydroelectric dams ("Wasserkraftwerk") and pumped storage ("Pumpspeicherkraftwerk"). It's one of these fascinating little insights in how differe…

I'm curious, what was the typo? The grammar hinted at German, but that's all I can see.

"englisch language" ... that the English 'sh' is pronounced almost identical to the German 'sch' is a common source for error.

Re: Why is hydroelectricity unfashionable?

#334

Post by qikInNdOutReply »

pencilguin wrote: post #307
civilized wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is hydroelectricity massively damaging while hydro pumped storage is great?

One destroys an ecosystem and fishery. The other moves water between ponds.

Never understood that to be honest.. we can today build quite excellent tunnels that are crossable for fishes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_B5bZvCdJY

Just make it go to almost the same depth and you dont even loose water..

Re: Why is hydroelectricity unfashionable?

#335

Post by BatteryMountain »

99_00 wrote: post #66
idiotsecant wrote: post #37

Obviously hydroelectricity is massively damaging to ecosystems. My day job includes designing hydroelectric control systems and even I can admit that. That's a big part of the reason that hydro is a non-starter in much of the western world, which is probably a reasonably good thing (although there are certainly some exceptions where hydro development seems like a no-brainer to me but I digress) What's not so clear to…

Why doesn't hydroelectric pumped storage have the same obvious and massive ecosystem damage as hydroelectric when it is hydro electric + the environmental damage caused by producing solar panels or wind turbines?

Check the one near Cape Town, Steenbras Dam. It is a set of two small dams near Cpt that uses a pumped storage scheme. It is currently used to provide load-shedding relieve during the day (cause the state owned entity Eskom is a failure).

So basically, during the daytime, they generate power from it and then at night the pump the water back to the upper dam. As far as I know its been working without any problems. And since the dams are fairly natural and small, and right by the coast (so very little downstream effects), it seems a bit more sustainable. The only wish would be for these mountain ranges to have multiple geographies like this so we can have multiple small pumped storage schemes with as little as possible negatives.

Re: Why is hydroelectricity unfashionable?

#336

Post by tchaffee »

seabrookmx wrote: post #259
chewbacha wrote: post #155

I was hoping that the author would address the environmental concerns. But instead, they are mentioned and then dismissed without argument. The enumerations are many that are mentioned: They are blamed for displacing populations, disrupting the flow of sediments and the migration of fish, destroying natural habitat and biodiversity, degrading water quality, and for the decay of submerged vegetation and the consequent…

And wind turbines decimate bird populations. I wouldn't be surprised if solar panels had a negative impact on insect species. Where is the magical green line? I think most people equate "green" to anything not involving petroleum.

Wind turbines don't decimate bird populations. Windows and cats kill far more birds. The numbers aren't even close. Climate change and fossil fuels also kill birds.

With wind turbines it is however manageable. The tech to detect birds and shut down turbines is already there.

https://www.robinradar.com/bird-control-radar-system-wind-fa...

Re: Why is hydroelectricity unfashionable?

#337

Post by MrPatan »

Because it was never about solving the problem, it was about absolution.

Without suffering they won't feel they deserve the absolution they crave, so every solution has some "problem"

- Electric cars still emit particles from the brakes!

- Nuclear reminds me of a scary TV show I saw!

- Solar doesn't let plants grow under them!

- Wind turbines kills birds!

The solution will be to come up with a way this type of person can feel properly absolved. A few decades or centuries ago they accomplished this with just a wooden box and a black robe, but that's not an option anymore. Not because it's better or worse, it just doesn't work today.

This is not a joke, this is a Very Hard problem, and also the one with the higest payoff for society. Can you imagine being able to make these people happy and letting the rest of the world get on with their lives? Golden age. Come on, nerd harder!

Re: Why is hydroelectricity unfashionable?

#338

Post by AstralStorm »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #321
philipkglass wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The facility you linked produces and stores chemical fuel, and can't even convert it back into electricity. The project includes using Mitsubishi M501JAC combined-cycle gas turbines to turn the hydrogen back into electricity: https://www.powermag.com/aces-deltas-giant-utah-salt-cavern-... https://power.mhi.com/products/gasturbines/lineup/m501j This turbine has a rated combined-cycle efficiency of 64%. Production of h…

why are turbines used in place of potentially more efficient fule cells?

Cost. Fuel cells require quality manufactured membranes that also require regular maintenance and replacement. Getting volume with them is also a hard problem.

Re: Why is hydroelectricity unfashionable?

#339

Post by BatteryMountain »

zizee wrote: post #161
agumonkey wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about artificial hydro ? make a big large raised water retention thing with generators.. it will take space but not harm existing natural spaces. Even in europe there's a lot of unused land.

Pumped hydro needs to be truely massive scale, both in the amount of water (read: lots of depth AND surface area), and the height differential between the two reservoirs. To make it cost feasible we really need very favourable natural geography. Building such structures ourselves would be astronomically expensive.

Check the one near Cape Town. It can run for up to 12 hours with two "small" dams and the altitudes for the dams are ~100m & ~350m respectively, connected by water tunnels & 4 turbines. It is located in the mountains, right next to the coast (which I think minimizes negatives further).

The the size and rainfall season matters for how long they can run. Cape Town has a winter-rain season that runs from roughly May to September.

Re: Why is hydroelectricity unfashionable?

#340

Post by AstralStorm »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #150
idiotsecant wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too little, too late unfortunately. The amount of storage available from these projects is tiny and even though it's accelerating it's not accelerating at nearly the level required for the physics of a primary renewable grid to work. Chemical storage of energy is expensive and requires a long supply chain. It's huge that the costs are trending in a favorable direction and maybe eventually we can do all our load balan…

PV should enable distributed power generation. I'm not saying grid storage, grid generation, and grid hydro isn't needed, but home solar should be a strong focus of policy. The cost differentials are basically all down to labor, which is generally locally captured. The "long supply chain" of batteries isn't true. We don't need cobalt or nickel for grid. Sodium Ion is going into mass production in China, and LFP is to…

You say ridiculous, and then Texas gets snowed in...
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