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Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

ourworldindata.org

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Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#391

Post by Schroedingersat »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #387
Schroedingersat wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost all global food production has large fossil fuel based inputs, land clearing is the unfortunate reality of growing population and consumption Well no it's not. Said population (which we should be stabilizing) can be sustained on a fraction of the land used today by eliminating the inefficient uses such as ethanol, cattle and almonds. > but at least the market allocates it somewhat efficiently, Nice slight of…

> Well no it's not. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cereal-crop-yield-vs-fert... Yep, fossil fuel based fertilizers and other chemicals aren't going away. > Said population (which we should be stabilizing) can be sustained on a fraction of the land used today by eliminating the inefficient uses such as ethanol, cattle and almonds. How about computer games and instagram and google searches and air travel and cars i…

> Yep, fossil fuel based fertilizers and other chemicals aren't going away.

Yes that sentence was definitely about the fossil fuel bit and not the land use of cattle vs other protein sources.

Try a piece of intellectual honesty. How much human edible protein can be produced on an acre of land being used for corn and soy cow feed? Now how much on the same land with the same fertiliser input with a combination of plants and free range chickens? How much even if you sacrifice some yield to use organic methods?

> Your wild conspiratorial fringe theories and claims are just false. For example The US Animal Welfare Act (AWA) was signed into law on August 24, 1966. Name any country and you'll be able to find laws and regulations for basic environmental and animal welfare standards.

And almost all of those countries have laws specifically criminalising whistleblowing or documenting violations or turns the burden of proof for libel onto the defendant. Here's one that criminalises having footage.

http://coolice.legis.state.ia.us/Cool-ICE/default.asp?Catego...

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#392

Post by wumpus »

hayst4ck wrote: post #296
fnimick wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Militant-ism isn't going to win people over. The great lie of capitalism is pushing a theory of personal responsibility rather than legislating these problems away. There are so many elements of my life that cause harm to other beings that addressing the harm could be a full time job. Killing rodents, mosquitos, and ants is something most people will do without a second thought. I've sprayed a wasp nest with wasp kil…

Wow. That you attack someone who merely said they're a vegetarian in these terms, and your comment isn't flagged and dead, is extremely embarrassing for HN.

I mean, I have low expectations (on HN) for anything involving vegetarians and vegans, but you've gone lower.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#393

Post by White_Wolf »

arcticbull wrote: post #289
notch656a wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see the connection between raising prices and better affordability/access of food for the poor. Certainly you could make food as valuable as, say gold, and most would be loath to waste a single gram of it.

If they're throwing out 40% of the food they buy, then raising prices slightly and not throwing out 40% of the food should be accessibility-neutral no? Instead of buying 2 milks and throwing 1 milk out, you buy 1 milk for 2X the price and throw out 0 milk. At the end of the day you still drank 1 milk for the same effective price. They already have significantly more than they need. Americans already pay less as a per…

You are assuming that there are no families that can barely afford what they need and really can't afford the waste or can afford the price increase.

Fasting is healthy but I'd rather it not be done because you can't afford to eat.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#394

Post by PostOnce »

ISL wrote: post #131
SCUSKU wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made a website to help visualize American meat consumption in terms of animals slaughtered per second. It’s pretty insane and I think does something to help communicate just how large such industrial operations truly are. https://zach.ws/meat/

It would be helpful to add the total number of meals consumed per unit time as well, and perhaps the number of humans born/dying. We eat a lot because there are a lot of us.

There aren't as many hungry kids as there used to be. There aren't as many hungry adults, either, for that matter. Global hunger is declining.

I am rather more worried about hungry kids than dead cows.

I also don't care if people can subsist solely on vegetables; subsistence is not our aim -- we can live in appalling conditions, but we got out of those circumstances deliberately. It took a great deal of time and hard work in miserable environments to do so.

That's why there's so much meat now, we were tired of being hungry and we built a better world.

We have build such a peaceful, prosperous world now that large numbers of people are worried about the emotional state of our meat. They're not worried about hunger or violence or poverty because, for enormous numbers of people, those issues are gone. So now we worry about chicken burritos.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#395

Post by hayst4ck »

garren wrote: post #362
ETH_start wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Fact? Do you have a citation for the higher intelligence, lower rates of depression/anxiety bit?

Meat has lots of Tryptophan and Tyrosine which are the precursors for serotonin and dopamine, the molecules most anti-depressents aim to modulate.

I am a layman, so not an expert, and I don't have a source for you for causality, but it sounds plausible to me.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#396

Post by [deleted] »

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #331
GuB-42 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chick culling is certainly gruesome, but not so shocking to me. It terms of animal suffering, I have seen much worse, still not enough to stop me from eating meat though. I've seen videos of these chick grinders, from fully live chick to ground meat, it takes something like 1/10 of a second, I am not even sure their brain have time to register what happens before there is no brain anymore. Culling also happens very e…

What happens to birds in the wild? Is it ethically significant that a particular one is predated upon by a human rather than another animal?

[deleted]

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#397

Post by xupybd »

socialismisok wrote: post #323
xupybd wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just accept that meat is a human food. Animals die for it. The natural world involves animals eating other animals. If you have to kill male calves because you're on a dairy farm then you kill the male calves. It's really not that shocking.

Meat is human food. But industrialization of meat is much more morally grey. Working with a local farmer to buy pasture raised pigs free from gestation crates is totally different from the hog mills with tiny cages and concrete floors.

I live in NZ. Our meat is mostly grown in open fields. Except chickens. They get it rough.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#398

Post by rpastuszak »

Claudus wrote: post #364
arcticbull wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

My grandmother had a plum bush about 12 feet high that would produce thousands of plums every year. We would eat a few hundred, but about 90% would be “wasted”. Of course, they rotted back into the soil and provided nourishment for other living things. Luckily, the bush is dead now, and all that food is no longer being wasted.

What's your point?

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#399

Post by myshpa »

rcarr wrote: post #245
myshpa wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to get the protein? That's the oldest excuse in the book. Debunked endlessly. Simply not true. https://www.peta.org/living/food/vegan-bodybuilders/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganbodybuilding/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/8y4noz/vegan_... https://www.theveganlink.com/resources/30-vegan-recipes-for-... https://plantbasedfaqs.com/protein-in-beans-vs-meat/ And…

It is absolutely amazing to me that I can go vegan for an entire year and heavyset_go can also try being vegan and you and the rest of the vegan brigade want to now lecture us with vegan subreddits and recipe blogs. I am absolutely aware of what the vegan protein sources are as I am sure, given their username, heavyset_go is. It is this kind of militant mentality which is why so many people roll their eyes whenever t…

> It is this kind of militant mentality which is why so many people roll their eyes

But, you know, you're the one who selected a lifestyle where you value your muscles above life of innocent beings, above the future of the nature and cause immense suffering with every meal you take.

You're killing innocent beings. Not just the ones you consume, you're also the reason why wildlife is dissapearing.

> The protein sources are inferior in density, amino acid profile and bioavailability, prep time is longer, more cooking is involved, meals can easily get monotonous and your social life is strained.

When somebody points out that you don't have to do that, you counter argue that it's inconvenient to prepare vegan meal? As if your convenience was somehow relevant.

> It is hard work on top of already gruelling work in the gym.

I bet you look awesome.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#400

Post by myshpa »

rcarr wrote: post #256
myshpa wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need only few % of the population protesting in the streets (less than 5% imho) to topple an authoritarian regime. I suppose with sufficient vegan base the political will to remove (huge) subsidies for meat/dairy industry will materialize. It simply doesn't make sense that meat burger/milk is cheaper than plant-based burger/milk now. You need 100x more land to produce same amount of calories (beef vs. peas). Remo…

> You need only few % of the population protesting in the streets (less than 5% imho) to topple an authoritarian regime. I know who my money would be on if vegans decide they want to try and overthrow the country. > we can't pretend forever that (negative) externalities don't exist. I agree but like I said, I think petri dish meat is the answer which would most likely be even less resource intensive than plant based…

We don't have time to wait until lab based proteins exists, it may take decades until we have the technology and until it spreads through whole world.

If we'll succeed in making them, it may take decades. Like finding the bugs to eat the plastics. That also takes forever.

And meanwhile the show goes on ... and on ...

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