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Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

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Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#291

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> Humans are more important by far. From the perspective of which species? Does might make right? For intra-human relationships as well? Could anything evil happen as a result of embracing this outlook?

Do you think most of the other animals wouldn't begrudgingly agree, if they (temporarily) had the capability to?

I mean, I think they may agree that we are the most powerful species on Earth (debatable, if you account for the impacts of bacteria, viruses, trees, etc.), but that's distinct from agreeing that our lives are the most valuable.

I think most humans would begrudgingly agree that white men, americans, europeans, etc. are the most powerful group on Earth. I don't think they'd agree that their lives are the most valuable.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#292

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I think you make it sound easier than it is. I also decided over dinner one evening. Then I realized meat was in almost every meal I loved. I tried them without meat and hated it. Habit I guess. Then I realized I'd rather be a bad person than a miserable person; that it was wrong, but I'd do it anyway. This is what you're up against -- the sad but brutal reality of apathy and willful disregard. Mea culpa.

Try to eat fewer meals with meat first. Find recipes, try them a few days of the week. That already helps.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#293
post #279

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On a planet filled with millions of species, is it ethically defensible to consider these matters from the perspective of just one?

Yes.

In a global civilization composed of countless groups of humans, is it ethically defensible to consider the perspective of just one?

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#295

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Or, you know, the climate is in crisis already: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/27/climate-... And meat eating has an enormous effect on climate change: https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-59232599 But sure, I'm the one with the fantasy future here. I wouldn't care except YOUR consumption is directly ruining the world for everyone else. And I notice you didn't address your own comment asking why we s…

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Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#296

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I am an unrepentant meat eater, but your visualization was absolutely fantastic. I would add that (my maybe incorrect napkin math) shows that 5 Americans die per minute to give it scale. My understanding is also that we destroy an absolutely phenomenal amount of chicks in an entirely gruesome way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling I have trouble handling that.

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Militant-ism isn't going to win people over.

The great lie of capitalism is pushing a theory of personal responsibility rather than legislating these problems away.

There are so many elements of my life that cause harm to other beings that addressing the harm could be a full time job.

Killing rodents, mosquitos, and ants is something most people will do without a second thought. I've sprayed a wasp nest with wasp killer and one writhed on the ground for 5 minutes and I felt awful about it, but there is practically a whole aisle of it at the local hardware store.

How many insects do you think have been harmed by industrial pesticides used in growing grains? What type of animal harm do you think pet ownership brings? How many wild birds do you think are killed in how many different ways? How many animals do you think are hit with cars? What do you think the effect the shipping industry has on sea life? What about trash? What about the smog? What about the chemicals dumped into the environment that are used to produce the hardware we are communicating with?

How much animal testing has been done by scientists on all types of animals to have what we have today?

My desire to pay as little as possible for coffee means the barista can't afford a home and likely will have their body harmed by the stress of not having enough money to operate in today's society. We send manufacturing off to poor countries were pollutants more directly harm their citizens than ours.

The wikipedia article states that poultry sex can be determined before hatching and that European countries have legislated that culling must stop, so it sounds like we are able to make progress. "Beyond" shows there is at least research going into lab grown/cruelty free meats.

Do I have a moral obligation to go live next to a pond feeding on what I can forage while living in a dwelling I built with my own hands or is it satisfying enough that I vote progressive and hope to make progress over time by regulating the more atrocious of our actions.

FWIW, I have tried vegetarianism and I did not enjoy it at all. I found it greatly limited my food choices. It felt ascetic and I felt miserable. So while it is easy for you, I did not find it easy.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#297

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Or we give out "free lunches" to people because as a society we don't value them starving? It's not an indicator of some huge oversupply and I certainly hope we wouldn't let them starve if food became slightly more scarce and expensive. Poverty and food anxiety is an enormous issue in this country and it baffles me that you can't see it.

It’s literally an indicator of a surplus. If you were ever poor you’d notice they label it “surplus cheese” when you’re given it.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#298

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I am an unrepentant meat eater, but your visualization was absolutely fantastic. I would add that (my maybe incorrect napkin math) shows that 5 Americans die per minute to give it scale. My understanding is also that we destroy an absolutely phenomenal amount of chicks in an entirely gruesome way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling I have trouble handling that.

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Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#299
post #243

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> Good luck with your soil recipes. Wtf. > Not true. Pesco-vegetarians had a lower death rate. They are not statistically distinguishable.

If they’re not “statistically distinguishable” why are you trying to claim the vegans have higher longevity?

Because between non-meat eaters and meat eaters there's a statistically significant reduction, while between vegans and fish-eaters there isn't?

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#300

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Militant-ism isn't going to win people over. The great lie of capitalism is pushing a theory of personal responsibility rather than legislating these problems away. There are so many elements of my life that cause harm to other beings that addressing the harm could be a full time job. Killing rodents, mosquitos, and ants is something most people will do without a second thought. I've sprayed a wasp nest with wasp kil…

>>The great lie of capitalism is pushing a theory of personal responsibility rather than legislating these problems away

>>There are so many elements of my life that cause harm to other beings that addressing the harm could be a full time job.

The principles of a free society with private-property/contract rights do NOT exclude the right of the collective to prohibit actions that generate negative externalities, including pollution of the commons and depletion of scarce natural resources.

Like most anti-capitalist arguments, yours is based on ridiculous caricatures of what you're railing against.

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