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Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

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Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> Why Melatonin is Bad For You (coming soon). I am curious to read why this is bad. My doc thinks this is perfectly fine

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Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're struggling with sleep and "turning the lights off" around bed time - we made a custom natural sleep product for high performers focused on quality, restful sleep - https://impossible.co/products/sleep Shoot me a DM if you want to try it out - happy to send one your way.

This is just magnesium and l-theanine

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- https://impossible.co/blogs/health/magnesium-and-sleep - https://impossible.co/blogs/health/l-theanine-for-sleep

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#173
post #164
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it was in the late 1980s, and it certainly created an aversion response! (although perhaps not the intended reaction) >> was pretty much aversion therapy - essentially just: "you'll behave properly or we'll torture you". If it has changed sufficiently to be essentially unrecognizable vs prior practice, that is probably a good thing... Still, knowing what I do about neuroscience from a minor in college, it still…

> If it has changed sufficiently to be essentially unrecognizable vs prior practice, that is probably a good thing... The aversion therapy element is gone entirely - it is always performed under general anesthesia, the patient must consent explicitly, and the patient consent and understanding must be checked regularly by a third party. > The real work of the brain & nervous system happens in hundreds of subtle intera…

Yes, I get it, modern ECT is very much improved.

However, I don't recall even implying or "act[ing] like the alternative is some kind of panacea", and I don't hold such a position, and I don't say there is no cost in the alternative.

In fact, it is likely that both are major problems, and will at some point be considered barbaric (as will the cancer chemotherapy you mentioned).

All three are deliberate massive disruptions to the entire system, not at all targeting the actual problem, and in fact any benefit is simply a welcome side-effect. An analogy would be a problem in some towns in the midwest US, and ECT is like hitting the zone with a Magnitude 9.3 earthquake and Ketamine/Chemo is like hitting the zone with a massive flood. Sure, the problem may go away, but...

The best advances are being made in immunological cancer treatments, which are far more targeted, and looking far more effective.

Eventually, we'll be able to know more to know which small subset among the 100 billion neurons and ~quadrillions of synapses to target. Meanwhile, considering either ECT or systemic drugs as much more than a few steps up vs applying leeches is just wrong. I haven't seen a shred of research that indicates understanding of exactly what brain structures are being targeted, and why nevermind what neurons, for ECT or the systemic drugs, and quite a bit on basically empirical, 'well we do this and it gets a desired effect X% of the time'. Sure, that is way better than nothing, and it is all we have, but it is NOT anything like the desired end state of diagnosing IN DETAIL and EXACT problem and it's detailed mechanism, and then repairing it.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#174
ECT is electrical lobotomy. It obliterates all the myelin in the body, and the result in all cases is brain damage and pain disorder. It cures depression by eliminating higher cognition. ECT should be banned and illegal. Ketamine, otoh, should be unscheduled.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#175
Wow, this is genuinely one of the most horrific studies I've seen on HN. I wish from the bottom of my soul that ECT would be banned worldwide for everything except extreme seizure treatment with patient consent. I know 2 people that have been irreparably damaged from it. I want my friends back, and I'll NEVER EVER get them back because Swedish 'doctors' forcefully administered treatment. There will there NEVER be justice because they were essentially lobotomized, and as such no longer have the mental capacities to sue the facility. ECT has an EXTREMELY high incidence of brain damage, and you only have to do one Google Scholar search to find out. Of course this 'study' doesn't track anything other than memory loss and headaches.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#176
post #10

“The side effect profiles of the two treatments differed, with ECT more likely to cause headaches, muscle pain and memory loss, while ketamine was more likely to cause dissociative symptoms, vertigo and double vision.” I’ll take milder effects over pain and memory loss, thanks. No mention of longevity of effect, or specific studies and who paid for them.

Yes, an acquaintance from college went through ECT. The guy was previously brilliant. Yes, his illness was part of his later problems, but he was wholly convinced that the ECT was a much larger problem. So much so that as soon as he got out of the institution, he commenced lawsuits against his parents who had set up his treatment (as far as I could tell for legit reasons; it wasn't one of those horror stories of abus…

I just left a comment about a deathly similar situation 2 of my Swedish friends have been in. It hurts my soul knowing they will never have the mental capacities to get justice.
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