Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

nature.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 112 posts

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#21

Post by duskwuff »

fasthands9 wrote: post #14
duskwuff wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there's a big difference between suffering from intrusive thoughts about a traumatic experience, and talking about that experience voluntarily. The former is stressful; the latter is therapeutic.

I guess my skepticism of this is a bit unpopular - but the way they measured intrusive thoughts is whether or not the people mentioned the traumatic film they saw in a journal for a week. It seems plausible to that thinking (even if involuntary) about any other traumatic memory may result in short term stress but in the long run help you process it and be healthy? Like in my own experience thinking about something a…

> I guess my skepticism of this is a bit unpopular - but the way they measured intrusive thoughts is whether or not the people mentioned the traumatic film they saw in a journal for a week.

That's a fair criticism. Doing research on real PTSD is tough -- everyone's experience is a little different, and is colored by their personal history -- and it'd be wildly unethical to put test subjects through an in-person experience stressful enough to induce lasting PTSD. Some studies, like the Tetris intervention one I linked elsewhere [1], used real trauma patients; others, like this one, have to rely on stress simulants like a violent film.

I will note, however, that Irréversible [2] -- the film this study used excerpts from -- is exceptionally violent. It's not a run-of-the-mill action film. One of the scenes the study probably used graphically depicts a man being beaten to death with a fire extinguisher.

[1]: https://www.psych.ox.ac.uk/news/tetris-used-to-prevent-post-...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irr%C3%A9versible

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#22

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

jasec57322 wrote: post #15

Why is stress after trauma a 'disorder'? And how is it a solution to drug people up, making them forget this?

A long time ago my wife shattered her wrist. In the ER, they explained that they needed to reset it so it could be put in a splint before surgery could be scheduled. They weren't going to use anesthetic. She would be conscious of the pain as they moved her wrist into position, but they'd give her something so she wouldn't remember the experience.

15+ years later she remembers telling them to go ahead and do it, then there's a hole in her memory for about 10 minutes.

I'd say that's one good solution.

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#23

Post by minitoar »

jasec57322 wrote: post #15

Why is stress after trauma a 'disorder'? And how is it a solution to drug people up, making them forget this?

It’s a disorder if the stress interferes with your daily life, e.g. you can’t hold down a job or your personal relationships suffer.

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#24

Post by ThePhantom »

fasthands9 wrote: post #6
kayodelycaon wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't take much thought to refute this idea. Talking about something can help you process it and feel better. If you have a bad day, talking to someone about it usually helps. Hell, bitching to a coworker about the idiot you just got off the phone with is a pastime for the average office workers.

I'm still a bit confused - sorry if I don't sound earnest. This drug eliminates the amount of time you think about a past event. This is pitched as good. Is the model that thinking about something is bad but talking about something is good? What if talking about something changes how or when you think about something? As you said with your co-worker example (which I realize is not PTSD levels) I think it could be pre…

This is a pre-clinical study that is designed to model an aspect of a "traumatic" event and assess how the treatment condition (hydrocortisone) can affect behavior. Moreover, this experiment is designed to probe the effects of trauma in the moments immediately after the traumatic event, where the stress response is initiated. This is likely the period of time where the most synaptic changes occur. Of course, this paper doesn't directly posit that forgetting thoughts associated with trauma is therapeutic, as that would require an empirical study that include patients with PTSD.

Also, the purpose of therapy, such as CBT, is not to fixate on one's current situation, but be able to unlearn feelings of trauma / anxiety from the event. This is done by engaging with a trained professional who can help the patient carefully break down their thoughts and feelings. Reflecting on a traumatic situation with a partner is different from reflecting on a traumatic situation amongst oneself.

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#25

Post by ska »

jasec57322 wrote: post #15

Why is stress after trauma a 'disorder'? And how is it a solution to drug people up, making them forget this?

> Why is stress after trauma a 'disorder'?

It isn't. Sometimes you can experience trauma, then experience stresses, and react to the stress in normal ways.

The disorder is when this doesn't happen, and you have atypical reactions to stress, which can be debilitating.

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#26

Post by runnerup »

jasec57322 wrote: post #15

Why is stress after trauma a 'disorder'? And how is it a solution to drug people up, making them forget this?

Because sometimes there's no war left to fight but the soldiers still can't return their minds to civilian life. They're disabled, unable to hold down a job reliably, unconfident in their ability to do normal tasks like go grocery shopping without having a debilitating panic attack which causes additional heart damage every time.

There's tons and tons of examples why stress after trauma is a disorder. Also a very good wikipedia article if you'd like a place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_stress_disorder

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#27

Post by kennywinker »

jasec57322 wrote: post #15

Why is stress after trauma a 'disorder'? And how is it a solution to drug people up, making them forget this?

The "disorder" is a description of about how it's causing people pain / trouble in their lives. Experiencing something, and processing it, and it having a lasting impact on your life and your thinking isn't by definition disordered. But having it cause problems in your life, e.g. physical touch from people you trust causing panic attacks, that's a disorder.

Forgetting, as a treatment, may be something some people want.

To my eyes your comment is pretty dismissive ("drug people up"). A little empathy, and an open heart goes a long way here.

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#28

Post by switchbak »

fasthands9 wrote: post #6
kayodelycaon wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't take much thought to refute this idea. Talking about something can help you process it and feel better. If you have a bad day, talking to someone about it usually helps. Hell, bitching to a coworker about the idiot you just got off the phone with is a pastime for the average office workers.

I'm still a bit confused - sorry if I don't sound earnest. This drug eliminates the amount of time you think about a past event. This is pitched as good. Is the model that thinking about something is bad but talking about something is good? What if talking about something changes how or when you think about something? As you said with your co-worker example (which I realize is not PTSD levels) I think it could be pre…

I think there's a difference between (mediated) constructive reflection with the goal of processing an event, and Repetitive Negative Thoughts (RNT) about an event. The latter can of course have long lasting negative effects.

I think it's probably better to reflect on and process a _potentially_ traumatic event, than it is to repress or otherwise force yourself to forget it. But either of those is preferable to dwelling on it and spiraling in negativity.

Perhaps this is just a matter of degree. For really bad trauma (mass casualty, etc) it's probably good to have stronger tools available.

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#30

Post by fasthands9 »

scarecrowbob wrote: post #19
fasthands9 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still a bit confused - sorry if I don't sound earnest. This drug eliminates the amount of time you think about a past event. This is pitched as good. Is the model that thinking about something is bad but talking about something is good? What if talking about something changes how or when you think about something? As you said with your co-worker example (which I realize is not PTSD levels) I think it could be pre…

Much of the therapy I have been involved with has been arranged not just around dealing with negative thoughts, but more fundamentally getting into a position where you can approach negative thoughts without moving into a triggered state. I think I get what you're saying; I could, for instance, just drink a lot every day to ignore a variety of ideas, but it's much healthier in the long run to deal with those ideas di…

Right. I think I mostly agree with you. Perhaps I just think involuntary/intrusive thoughts in the study is a bit of a loaded term. These words to me sound implicitly negative - but unless they resulted in serious negative behaviors then I don't see why they should be considered such a negative. From my own perspective it seems that even if my own thinking about something a lot may not be as effective as therapy or meditation, thinking about something does help process it and does help you come to a similar calmness about it.

The drug in the paper, to me, seems more like the coping strategies you talk about but without the other physical harms. Like what if alcohol made you not think about something but actually kept your physical and mental health the same/stable? Would that be desired? Isn't that what this drug is hoping to achieve?

Post reply on HN