Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone • Hacker News Board

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#11

Post by fasthands9 » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 7:09 PM UTC

dmbche wrote: post #5

fasthands9 wrote: post #3

In the US it seems like it is extremely in vogue to talk about trauma and PTSD. From a layman's POV, it seems pretty obvious that talking about something very often (whether it be with a therapist or just friends) would elevate the amount of times someone thinks of something. From my understanding of the paper, this drug is a success if it lowers the amount of time someone thinks of a traumatic memory >We found that…

What they are reffering to as "intrusions" is not just having thoughts about the traumatic event, it is having intrusive and uncontrolable toughts pop into your mind when triggered - it's very disrupting and distracting. Depending on the level of trauma, these intrusions can be debilitating. In general, PTSD treatment involves changing one's perspective towards the traumatic event so that when triggered, the thoughts…

I realize I am being downvoted so perhaps this is settled in literature.

I know PTSD can be traumatic and takes different forms

I suppose my confusion still comes from the fact that stopping intrusive thoughts is measured as good. But what if these intrusive facts are needed (just like therapy) to process things in the long run?

I would understand if someone could ran a (very costly) experiment that said "Taking this over the course of 5 years lowered the amount of outbursts/negative behaviors someone took" but this is just measuring thoughts.

Presumably, if there had been another group that had been in a therapy group after seeing this traumatic film it is highly possible the number of times someone thought about the film (which is what they were measuring) would have gone up - but would that be bad?

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#12

Post by fellowniusmonk » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 7:12 PM UTC

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #2

Combine with propranolol for maximum effect. A very overlooked drug that can be used in the treatment of many disorders related to anxiety, stress and fear. Without the risk of debiliating addiction benzos and benzolikes bring. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14573324/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3692719/

Yeah, I've been on beta blockers for a heart defect for several years now. I read this paper about a year after going on them and just started exploring trauma on my own (stuff that made me weep or even pull face muscles in grief) the post sleep memory reconsolidation is basically a miracle and my emotional trauma responses were basically wrapped up within ~ 1 year. There is now nothing so awful I cannot touch, hold and examine it. I no longer even have nightmares of any kind. I don't have intrusive thoughts from past events during the day (none to speak of) and no rumination either, it's like speed running stoicism.

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#13

Post by duskwuff » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 7:12 PM UTC

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #2

Combine with propranolol for maximum effect. A very overlooked drug that can be used in the treatment of many disorders related to anxiety, stress and fear. Without the risk of debiliating addiction benzos and benzolikes bring. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14573324/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3692719/

And, for a nonpharmaceutical intervention -- have them play a bit of Tetris.

https://www.psych.ox.ac.uk/news/tetris-used-to-prevent-post-...

I can confirm from personal experience that this works, and that it isn't specific to Tetris. Other visual/spatial puzzles are similarly effective.

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#14

Post by fasthands9 » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 7:13 PM UTC

duskwuff wrote: post #7

kayodelycaon wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't take much thought to refute this idea. Talking about something can help you process it and feel better. If you have a bad day, talking to someone about it usually helps. Hell, bitching to a coworker about the idiot you just got off the phone with is a pastime for the average office workers.

And there's a big difference between suffering from intrusive thoughts about a traumatic experience, and talking about that experience voluntarily. The former is stressful; the latter is therapeutic.

I guess my skepticism of this is a bit unpopular - but the way they measured intrusive thoughts is whether or not the people mentioned the traumatic film they saw in a journal for a week.

It seems plausible to that thinking (even if involuntary) about any other traumatic memory may result in short term stress but in the long run help you process it and be healthy? Like in my own experience thinking about something a lot on my own is part of therapy - since I really think about how I explain the situation and what really happened - so I guess I'm skeptical that not thinking of something is actually good for mental health in the long run even if in the short run it works.

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#15

Post by jasec57322 » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 7:14 PM UTC

Why is stress after trauma a 'disorder'? And how is it a solution to drug people up, making them forget this?

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#16

Post by CocaKoala » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 7:16 PM UTC

fasthands9 wrote: post #6

kayodelycaon wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't take much thought to refute this idea. Talking about something can help you process it and feel better. If you have a bad day, talking to someone about it usually helps. Hell, bitching to a coworker about the idiot you just got off the phone with is a pastime for the average office workers.

I'm still a bit confused - sorry if I don't sound earnest. This drug eliminates the amount of time you think about a past event. This is pitched as good. Is the model that thinking about something is bad but talking about something is good? What if talking about something changes how or when you think about something? As you said with your co-worker example (which I realize is not PTSD levels) I think it could be pre…

It eliminates the times you uncontrollably think about a past event - note that voluntary recall isn't affected. So it's saying that this lets you process the trauma in a controlled environment when you're in a position to deal with it, but otherwise resume a life that isn't interrupted or dominated by it.

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#17

Post by kayodelycaon » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

duskwuff wrote: post #7

kayodelycaon wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't take much thought to refute this idea. Talking about something can help you process it and feel better. If you have a bad day, talking to someone about it usually helps. Hell, bitching to a coworker about the idiot you just got off the phone with is a pastime for the average office workers.

And there's a big difference between suffering from intrusive thoughts about a traumatic experience, and talking about that experience voluntarily. The former is stressful; the latter is therapeutic.

Oh, I'm quite aware. I spent most of my life dealing with them. Psychosis, paranoia, and flashbacks are a bitch.

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#18

Post by thinkingemote » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 7:18 PM UTC

Isn't there a similar study where playing Tetris helped people recover faster?

Re: Accelerated forgetting of a trauma event after a single dose of hydrocortisone

#19

Post by scarecrowbob » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

fasthands9 wrote: post #6

kayodelycaon wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't take much thought to refute this idea. Talking about something can help you process it and feel better. If you have a bad day, talking to someone about it usually helps. Hell, bitching to a coworker about the idiot you just got off the phone with is a pastime for the average office workers.

I'm still a bit confused - sorry if I don't sound earnest. This drug eliminates the amount of time you think about a past event. This is pitched as good. Is the model that thinking about something is bad but talking about something is good? What if talking about something changes how or when you think about something? As you said with your co-worker example (which I realize is not PTSD levels) I think it could be pre…

Much of the therapy I have been involved with has been arranged not just around dealing with negative thoughts, but more fundamentally getting into a position where you can approach negative thoughts without moving into a triggered state.

I think I get what you're saying; I could, for instance, just drink a lot every day to ignore a variety of ideas, but it's much healthier in the long run to deal with those ideas directly.

Unfortunately, the reason why there are so many palliative coping strategies is that unless a person is in a state where they can examine those uncomfortable thoughts, then it's just creating more harm and the person isn't able to deal with the issue. That in turn often leads to the maladaptive coping that leads people into therapy in the first place.

So a common therapeutic goal getting people to a point where they can first recognize that they are in an upset state, second calm themselves without totally disengaging from the event and, then (if possible) work on whatever thoughts or events led to becoming upset in that manner.

That work is contingent on the first two parts of that; palliative care to help people get into a place where they can do the first two things without engaging in more harmful types of coping strategies (drinking, for instance) seems like a reasonable method.