Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#191

Post by zmmmmm » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 11:19 PM UTC

Xuzz wrote: post #37

See, to me, Samsung does have an issue here, but it's not about the "rounded rectangle" shape or the "reasonably thick black bezel": it's the fact they have both of those, like the iPad, but then also surround them with a marginal silver border. I own both the Galaxy Tab 10.1" and an iPad 2, and I actually do get confused between the two all the time, when looking at them from above. They're about the same thickness…

Here's a nice google search you can do:

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=samsung+laptop&tbm=isc...

Notice the color, shape and style of the laptops you see, especially their displays. They nearly all have black bezel, are rectangular with rounded corners. It basically has all the features you mention.

Samsung's Galaxy Tab looks as much like they ripped a display off one of their laptops as it does like an iPad. It is essentially their brand, the style of design they have applied for years across much of their range. That's one reason they happen to look more like the iPad than some of the other tablet makers.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#192

Post by cube13 » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 11:21 PM UTC

ljf wrote: post #144

danilocampos wrote: post #102

I want these people who are running around saying there's no other way to design Samsung's stuff to explain to me one thing. Why, of all the devices on earth, does Samsung's tablet exactly mimic Apple's USB connector? I've got a Galaxy Tab sitting right next to me, here. The design isn't just similar, the dimensions are nearly identical. Explain it to me. Please. If you can offer a compelling case for why Samsung isn…

The cable is a PDMI cable, an industry standard developed by ANSI/CEA ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Electronics_Associatio... ), my Dell Streak comes with an identical one too, as do certain Android media players (Slacker G2). Info on PDMI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDMI Image of Dell Streak PDMI: http://www.images.technologyking.co.uk/25032011/hgggg.jpg

Here's the Dell Streak's pin configuration: http://www.streaksmart.com/2010/07/dell-streak-doesnt-use-sa...

That's not the same as either Apple's or Samsung's. Samsung's connection is a mirrored version of Apple's. Here's a comparison of the 3 device connectors: http://android.modaco.com/topic/324387-docking-port-is-it-pd...

It's pretty hard to say that Samsung is "just following the standard" if it's different than Dell's connector.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#193

Post by jonknee » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 11:21 PM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #163

ljf wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cable is a PDMI cable, an industry standard developed by ANSI/CEA ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Electronics_Associatio... ), my Dell Streak comes with an identical one too, as do certain Android media players (Slacker G2). Info on PDMI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDMI Image of Dell Streak PDMI: http://www.images.technologyking.co.uk/25032011/hgggg.jpg

Indeed, that does address the pin configuration. What about the connector housing and strain relief, though? Hell, Apple's strain relief sucks – you need a pack of Sugru to rescue older dock connector cables. You don't copy that for practical reasons, right? The specimens you linked look very different from Samsung's dubiously unique interpretation.

The housing and strain relief are both different. It's the same type of connector on both ends so there is no way they won't end up looking similar.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#194

Post by zmmmmm » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 11:23 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #126

jessriedel wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't matter. Design patents are about non-branded aesthetics. (A typeface can be design-patented because coming up with a beautiful typeface is hard. In many countries, including the US, typefaces can't be copyrighted.) But trademarks are about consumer confusion, i.e. consumers accidentally buy a Samsung tablet because they think they're buying an iPad, which has a reputation. Xuzz was commenting that he confused…

Design patents are about functionality. Design patents cannot cover function. That's what regular patents are for. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent#Comparison_to_ut...

Which is one reason why I think Apple will have trouble here. Samsung only needs to show that there is a functional basis for their design decisions (rounded corners => more comfortable, black bezel => better contrast, metal band on frame => stronger, more scratch resistant, etc). and the issues of design patents and trade dress fall away.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#195

Post by glhaynes » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 11:40 PM UTC

Steko wrote: post #169

danilocampos wrote: post #102

I want these people who are running around saying there's no other way to design Samsung's stuff to explain to me one thing. Why, of all the devices on earth, does Samsung's tablet exactly mimic Apple's USB connector? I've got a Galaxy Tab sitting right next to me, here. The design isn't just similar, the dimensions are nearly identical. Explain it to me. Please. If you can offer a compelling case for why Samsung isn…

Facts that form a good starting point for understanding that Samsung's defense is not open and shut: (1) Some copying is legal. (2) Some copying is illegal. (3) The line between (1) and (2) is not clearly drawn. (4) Many companies copy Apple -- some legally and some illegally. (5) Samsung copies Apple a lot closer then most other mainstream (read: non-pirate) companies do. ... The problem with Samsung is why (5)? To…

Well said. I'll add: (5) seems natural if (and we certainly don't have to) we also believe a few other facts:

(6) As this article says, Apple [un]designs things by "creating the simplest shape possible".

(7) This is a good thing. It leads in very many cases to the best products.

(8) Samsung, more than others, recognizes (7) and so follows Apple's lead.

If so, then the only way for Samsung to be legal, if (5) is past the line of acceptability, is to intentionally put effort into making worse products.

Which would, at the very least, make a Samsung designer's job description an interesting one.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#196

Post by ergo14 » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 11:43 PM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #102

I want these people who are running around saying there's no other way to design Samsung's stuff to explain to me one thing. Why, of all the devices on earth, does Samsung's tablet exactly mimic Apple's USB connector? I've got a Galaxy Tab sitting right next to me, here. The design isn't just similar, the dimensions are nearly identical. Explain it to me. Please. If you can offer a compelling case for why Samsung isn…

http://1.androidauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/sam...

Here this is a nice photo frame samsung made in 2006, interestingly no one sued anyone for it. Apple is just full of bullshit and does everything to halt sales of their competitor.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#197

Post by teyc » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 11:45 PM UTC

glhaynes wrote: post #195

Steko wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facts that form a good starting point for understanding that Samsung's defense is not open and shut: (1) Some copying is legal. (2) Some copying is illegal. (3) The line between (1) and (2) is not clearly drawn. (4) Many companies copy Apple -- some legally and some illegally. (5) Samsung copies Apple a lot closer then most other mainstream (read: non-pirate) companies do. ... The problem with Samsung is why (5)? To…

Well said. I'll add: (5) seems natural if (and we certainly don't have to) we also believe a few other facts: (6) As this article says, Apple [un]designs things by "creating the simplest shape possible". (7) This is a good thing. It leads in very many cases to the best products. (8) Samsung, more than others, recognizes (7) and so follows Apple's lead. If so, then the only way for Samsung to be legal, if (5) is past…

This reminds me of engineers trying to work around patents. I spoke to a guy who manufactures flexible guide posts which can flex in any 360 direction. He has a patent on it, and the flexible part is cylindrical. He said competitors work around the patent by making square shaped posts. Obviously this is not the most natural shape if you were to want to flex in all directions.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#198

Post by wtvanhest » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 11:47 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #188

danilocampos wrote: post #102

I want these people who are running around saying there's no other way to design Samsung's stuff to explain to me one thing. Why, of all the devices on earth, does Samsung's tablet exactly mimic Apple's USB connector? I've got a Galaxy Tab sitting right next to me, here. The design isn't just similar, the dimensions are nearly identical. Explain it to me. Please. If you can offer a compelling case for why Samsung isn…

How about the MILLIONS of apple USB cables out there by iphone and ipad and ipod users where these same users may buy a samsung device and still be able to use their cables. I have ~10 apple USB cables. I keep 1 in my backpack, 1 in the car, 1 in the bedroom, I have a 6' long one I bought from deal extreme and several others in various places. I have an iPad - but I'm open to other devices and I hate it when I cant u…

If you stop buying Apple products all your USB cables will look the same for all devices.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#199

Post by alexwolfe » Fri, Dec 09, 2011, 12:10 AM UTC

Every designer I know will tell you it take much longer and requires much more difficulty to make something complicated look very very simple.

Most peoples reaction to something designed very well is: "oh of course you do it like that, how would you do it anyway else".

But this is naive thinking, there are plenty of ways to design and most are not simple. The beauty of the iPad is that people understand it at a glance, that is incredibly profound. I think it is really unfortunate that the writer of this article took the stance that they undesigned it, simply wrong. They intelligently designed every aspect of this device which is exactly what his diagrams point out.

Apple's computers, tablets, phone, iPod, all look very unique and were certainly designed not undesigned. All of these objects are man made and inherently require design for them to take shape.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#200

Post by sbuk » Fri, Dec 09, 2011, 12:29 AM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #177

jopt wrote: post #63

The author seems to argue that only unsuccessful design is entitled to protection.

No, just that only non-obvious design should be entitled to protection. A thumb-width, neutrally colored bezel, a rectangle screen, and non-lethal corners are obvious. Apple's suggestions are to specifically engineer a device that looks unlike an Apple product, rather than designing a device in the obvious way. Apple wants to corner the market on simple design. Imagine if your coffee cup couldn't be designed to be ro…

>>Apple wants to corner the market on simple design. Imagine if your coffee cup couldn't be designed to be round, have a handle that goes from the top to the bottom, or have an opening on the top to drink from.

I don't understand this point of view at all. It's seems loaded and emotive. I'll ask you this; why can other hardware manufacturers make tablet devices that are aesthetically appealing to consumers that aren't using a near identical visual language.