Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#121

Post by jessriedel » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 7:20 PM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #96

jessriedel wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that this is a patent dispute, not a trademark dispute. Therefore, the fact that you confuse the two isn't really relevant.

Design patent.

Doesn't matter. Design patents are about non-branded aesthetics. (A typeface can be design-patented because coming up with a beautiful typeface is hard. In many countries, including the US, typefaces can't be copyrighted.) But trademarks are about consumer confusion, i.e. consumers accidentally buy a Samsung tablet because they think they're buying an iPad, which has a reputation.

Xuzz was commenting that he confused the tablets, which isn't relevant. It would have been relevant if he said "I really noticed how nice the Samsung looked and how little glare it had due to case design (just like Apple). Those details are subtle but non-obvious."

Here more from wikipedia for anyone interested:

> Trademarks and trade dress are used to protect consumers from confusion as to the source of a manufactured object. To get trademark protection, the trademark owner must show that the mark is not likely to be confused with other trademarks for items in the same general class. The trademarks can last indefinitely as long as they are used in commerce. Design patents are only granted if the design is novel and not obvious for all items,[7] even those of different utility than the patented object. An actual shield of a given shape, for example, can be cited as prior art against a design patent on a computer icon with a shield shape. The validity of design patents is not affected by whether or not the design is commercialized.

I didn't know this stuff until I looked it up in response to your comment, so thanks.

[Edited in response to nitrogen. Thanks.]

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#122

Post by phaus » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 7:20 PM UTC

rickmb wrote: post #61

Pewpewarrows wrote: post #17

I'll just leave this here for everyone saying that iPad-like designs never existed before the iPad: http://gdeluxe.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/20111004-03455...

What I see is an excellent example of how tablets before the iPad did not look anything like the iPad, and those after have clearly been inspired by it. Then again, this kind of design-blindness doesn't surprise me. There are constantly people claiming that certain laptops and phones are equally well-designed as Apple products. There is clearly a large group of people who cannot see the difference.

So basically you are calling out people for their "design blindness" while at the same time you imply that no competing electronic device has ever been designed as well as anything Apple has ever made.

I like Apple products too, but some of their competitors make awesome products from time to time.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#123

Post by sirn » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 7:23 PM UTC

samtregar2 wrote: post #112

sirn wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's `-webkit-text-size-adjust`. This property, at its original intent, was introduced as a way to tell Mobile Safari (and other WebKit mobile browsers) to not auto-adjust the font size on orientation change. However, there also exists `-apple-text-size-adjust` that used in several WebKit views in Apple softwares (e.g. Safari's RSS reader use `-apple-text-size-adjust` for its sidebar). At one point they deprecated `-…

Thanks - very informative. Why would they bother trying to prevent font re-sizing on orientation change? Surely that's done to make the text more readable.

Behavior for resizing on orientation change is kind of annoying sometimes because it adjust some font size but not all. When you create a mobile optimized site, for example, this behavior make it a lot harder to style page elements.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#124

Post by NickPollard » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 7:25 PM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #102

I want these people who are running around saying there's no other way to design Samsung's stuff to explain to me one thing. Why, of all the devices on earth, does Samsung's tablet exactly mimic Apple's USB connector? I've got a Galaxy Tab sitting right next to me, here. The design isn't just similar, the dimensions are nearly identical. Explain it to me. Please. If you can offer a compelling case for why Samsung isn…

So why aren't we reading articles saying 'Sales of Samsung USB cables banned' rather than 'Sales of Samsung Tablets banned'?

I agree that the USB cable is rather a smoking gun - but it's the only one. If that's what's wrong, attack that. Don't go and use that to argue about everything else.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#125

Post by danilocampos » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 7:30 PM UTC

NickPollard wrote: post #124

danilocampos wrote: post #102

I want these people who are running around saying there's no other way to design Samsung's stuff to explain to me one thing. Why, of all the devices on earth, does Samsung's tablet exactly mimic Apple's USB connector? I've got a Galaxy Tab sitting right next to me, here. The design isn't just similar, the dimensions are nearly identical. Explain it to me. Please. If you can offer a compelling case for why Samsung isn…

So why aren't we reading articles saying 'Sales of Samsung USB cables banned' rather than 'Sales of Samsung Tablets banned'? I agree that the USB cable is rather a smoking gun - but it's the only one. If that's what's wrong, attack that . Don't go and use that to argue about everything else.

>So why aren't we reading articles saying 'Sales of Samsung USB cables banned'

This almost borders on the deliberately obtuse, here.

The USB cable doesn't exist in isolation, a decorative piece in the packaging, to be displayed on your desk as the proud owner of a Samsung product.

The cable plugs into the tablets Samsung is selling. Only those tablets, no others. The cables serve no other use. These tablets have a port on the bottom that has been specifically to designed to fit these and only these cables. So this pretty blatantly lifted design is integral to the tablet. Not just the cable.

Which is the smoke in the gun barrel. It's the obvious signal that says Samsung was looking in a very specific, singular direction when they made their design decisions.

But let's go with your thinking, here:

If such a ban prevailed, and those cables were forbidden from distribution anywhere on earth, even inside the box of a Samsung tablet, the tablet would not function. Couldn't charge.

So it would be an effective short term remedy. And, there again, your smoking gun. The most critical, non-negotiable piece of the entire device was lifted wholesale from Apple.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#126

Post by nitrogen » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 7:31 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #121

tedunangst wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Design patent.

Doesn't matter. Design patents are about non-branded aesthetics. (A typeface can be design-patented because coming up with a beautiful typeface is hard. In many countries, including the US, typefaces can't be copyrighted.) But trademarks are about consumer confusion, i.e. consumers accidentally buy a Samsung tablet because they think they're buying an iPad, which has a reputation. Xuzz was commenting that he confused…

Design patents are about functionality.

Design patents cannot cover function. That's what regular patents are for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent#Comparison_to_ut...

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#127

Post by Xuzz » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 7:31 PM UTC

leoedin wrote: post #86

Xuzz wrote: post #37

See, to me, Samsung does have an issue here, but it's not about the "rounded rectangle" shape or the "reasonably thick black bezel": it's the fact they have both of those, like the iPad, but then also surround them with a marginal silver border. I own both the Galaxy Tab 10.1" and an iPad 2, and I actually do get confused between the two all the time, when looking at them from above. They're about the same thickness…

Perhaps this is somewhat off topic, but what do you actually use so many tablets for? I can definitely see the appeal of a tablet, but I can't really imagine a usage scenario that requires the specific features of one of four different tablets.

Many of them were free. The Galaxy Tab 10.1" is from Google I/O, the TouchPad is from HP for development, although I bought the iPad and Kindle Fire myself. I do use them for development too, where it is useful to have a device for the platform you are developing for.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#128

Post by Tichy » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 7:34 PM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #102

I want these people who are running around saying there's no other way to design Samsung's stuff to explain to me one thing. Why, of all the devices on earth, does Samsung's tablet exactly mimic Apple's USB connector? I've got a Galaxy Tab sitting right next to me, here. The design isn't just similar, the dimensions are nearly identical. Explain it to me. Please. If you can offer a compelling case for why Samsung isn…

I know at least one Android tablet that has an extra power connector because apparently it's USB micro connector can not provide sufficient power.

Maybe the Apple USB connector is not even protected design and Samsung was allowed to use it? Is it actually compatible to the Apple connector.

Once you go for a wider connector, perhaps again there are not that many options if you want to be thin. It has to be some kind of slot of some length. Presumably the amount of pins is fixed, and you want a minimum length per pin for good connectivity? (I am just guessing, don't know much about electronics).

Anyway, do you feel offended by a slot in a tablet? Does it really matter that much?

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#129

Post by Tichy » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 7:35 PM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #116

Qz wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A wide plug is less likely to get jostled out by moving the cord sideways back and forth. It's fairly common sense.

And a width of 21mm is the only configuration that could satisfy this requirement? Precisely that, and no other? I don't mean to be flip, but it beggars belief to say that this is some sort of platonic form of tablet connector, especially given that the connector originated on the iPod in 2003, and existed not for stability, but for thinness, and to provide additional pins for accessories in a larger Apple-specific e…

I am sure they did not copy the 21mm because it looks the best. There must be some other reason.

Re: Apple Never Designed the iPad - They Undesigned it

#130

Post by Tichy » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 7:35 PM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #116

Qz wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A wide plug is less likely to get jostled out by moving the cord sideways back and forth. It's fairly common sense.

And a width of 21mm is the only configuration that could satisfy this requirement? Precisely that, and no other? I don't mean to be flip, but it beggars belief to say that this is some sort of platonic form of tablet connector, especially given that the connector originated on the iPod in 2003, and existed not for stability, but for thinness, and to provide additional pins for accessories in a larger Apple-specific e…

I am sure they did not copy the 21mm because it looks the best. There must be some other reason.