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Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

today.uconn.edu

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Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#31

Post by chiefalchemist »

rubatuga wrote: post #20
chiefalchemist wrote: post #5

> All five of the studies independently found that ECT was more effective than ketamine at relieving *severe* depression symptoms. A keyword was left from the title / headline.

Definitely a key factor since most psychiatrists reserve ECT for severe depression.

I think the article mentions that. That said, I would presume the Schedule 1 drugs are being approached with a conservative mindset. But they still mind have wider application once the med profession gets past the stigma. The point being, abandoning these new options should be given a fair chance even if there are intials findings like this one.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#32

Post by IIAOPSW »

tcj_phx wrote: post #23

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so t…

Technically, its only electrocution if she dies. Otherwise its an electroshock. The consent of your friends guardian to either the former, the latter, or both is not within my ability to say.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#33

Post by aetherson »

tru3_power wrote: post #24
warrenmiller wrote: post #4

aren't the side effects of ECT quite severe though? "loss of creativity, drive and energy. difficulty concentrating. loss of emotional responses. difficulty learning new information."

So what are the upsides

"Not feeling incredibly depressed."

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#34

Post by RichardCNormos »

larryliu wrote: post #17

Ketamine is a prescription medicine that can be taken oral, intranasal or IV drip. ECT is an inpatient procedure that need one anesthesiologist and one psychiatrist plus nurses to administer, two to three times weekly for three to four weeks. Who pays for the healthcare, definitely want to try the former and use the latter only if the former works poorly.

No post body was provided.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#36

Post by kortex »

chrsig wrote: post #29
tcj_phx wrote: post #23

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so t…

> But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so they just added this vitamin to their cocktail of prescriptions. Outside of very specific circumstances during hospitalization, doctors can't actually force you to take any medication.

Ehhhhhh depends a lot on the circumstances and the hospital/center. In theory, yeah, in practice, it's a lot harder for patients to refuse treatment, for one reason or another.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#37

Post by MichaelCollins »

chrsig wrote: post #29
tcj_phx wrote: post #23

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so t…

> But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so they just added this vitamin to their cocktail of prescriptions. Outside of very specific circumstances during hospitalization, doctors can't actually force you to take any medication.

I think "my friend's guardian" suggests this person was not fully emancipated for some reason. Doctor strongly suggests it to the legal guardian and the legal guardian requires it could be summed up as "the doctor forced it"

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#38

Post by spangry »

tcj_phx wrote: post #23

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so t…

> ECT should be retired from use. I heard once that brain damage causes the brain to increase production of the steroid allopregnanolone. The beneficial effect of the SSRI's seem to also be related to increased allopregnanolone, NOT to boosting serotonin levels.

That's a fascinating insight. Recent medical research implicates neuroinflammation in the pathogenesis of depression [0][1]. Steroids generally have anti-inflammatory properties. Allopregnanolone specifically has anti-neuroinflammatory effects [2][3].

It's amazing, inflammation appears to be implicated in all manner of diseases and conditions.

[0] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ejn.14720 [1] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2021.6910... [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009130221... [3] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235228951...

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#39

Post by MangezBien »

I had ECT and it was absolutely life changing. Only thing that ever worked for me. Mild headaches with each treatment and my memories of the time of my treatment is fuzzy. But I think we probably should be investigating why it works so well.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#40

Post by tcj_phx »

chrsig wrote: post #29
tcj_phx wrote: post #23

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so t…

> But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so they just added this vitamin to their cocktail of prescriptions. Outside of very specific circumstances during hospitalization, doctors can't actually force you to take any medication.

Most states have provisions for involuntary mental health treatment. Arizona's laws for forced mental health treatment are in ARS Title 36, Chapter 5: https://www.azleg.gov/arsDetail/?title=36

As soon as the doctors got their order for involuntary treatment in November 2015, they cornered my friend and injected her with a time-release version of haloperidol, then released her to her mother's house.

A day and a half later her mom called the psychiatrists, who said to take my friend to a real ER. My friend told the real doctors at the real ER that she was NOT suicidal. She told me how the haloperidol had 'hit her like a truck', and she tried everything she could think of to counteract the agony: alcohol, cocaine, heroin, dextromethorphan (aka cough syrup), etc.

All the anti-dopamine drugs are terrible. Some of the second-generation drugs that are forced on people are much worse than plain old haloperidol. The poor doctors are just implementing their training. Tragic.

My observation is that agony-inducing drugs are not actually helpful for substance abuse.

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