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Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

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Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#251

Post by Maursault »

kennyloginz wrote: post #249
Maursault wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? ...In the scenario where he did not cheat, is he really on a Bobby Fischer-like ascendance? I think so, yes, and even considerably moreso. According to Yosha Iglesias[1] and her anonymous mathematician friend, for 5 tournaments in a row starting at the Phila…

Yosha has admitted that their analysis was flawed… https://twitter.com/IglesiasYosha/status/1574308784566067201...

Only the ROI of the probability of 6 consecutive tournaments was miscalculated, not the engine correlation percentages.

Fischer at his best during 20 consecutive winning games at his peak performance had an average engine correlation of 72%, while Niemann's average was 73% across 5 tournaments. I just saw this: Magnus Carlson's average engine correlation across 5 tournaments in 2021 (roughly the same period as Niemann's 5) was 66.48%[1].

Niemann conspicuously appears to be a superior chess player at 19yo than both Bobby Fischer at 27yo during the peak performance of his career and a much better chess player than Magnus Carson at 30yo while he was and is reigning World Champion.

[1] https://twitter.com/ty_johannes/status/1574780445744668673?t...

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#253

Post by subtra3t »

incomingpain wrote: post #229
2bitencryption wrote: post #44

Can someone explain something - Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? I.e. beating Magnus, Elo rating, etc. I know chess.com did an analysis, which I've read, but I'm hoping someone more impartial could explain it. In the scenario where he did not cheat, is he really on a Bobby Fischer-like ascend…

>Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). as far as i can tell he's hasn't cheated since 2020. Ive seen several of his games though where he certainly has cheated. >In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? I.e. beating Magnus, Elo rating, etc. I know chess.com did an analysis, which I've read, but I'm hoping someone more impartial could exp…

> He's an admitted cheater; but what seems to have gone unsaid is that perhaps his cheating isn't actual cheating. Rather he was reading his stream comments and viewers were cheating for him. It's not quite the same.

..what?! Your definition of cheating appears to differ from the accepted meaning of the word in quite a few ways

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#255

Post by nextaccountic »

busyant wrote: post #185
gretch wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a lawyer but I’ve been in lawsuits on all sides. It’s the general recommended practice. The number can only go down, never up, so you ask for all that you can. It does have -some- sense if you think about it: this is a young kid with a whole career ahead of him. Because of this accusation, his career is pretty much over. Since he could have been one of the best (as demonstrated by beating magnus) he would have ma…

> Because of this accusation, his career is pretty much over. That was the conventional wisdom 3 weeks ago, when chess.com unleashed their report and things looked pretty bad for Hans. But he performed respectably at the US championship over the past ~2 weeks (4 wins, 3 losses, 6 draws). He was entertainingly arrogant in interviews (I consider this a plus) and seemed to spontaneously conjure chaos (see the king decap…

In chess, a lot of tournaments are invite-only and he reports his invite was already dropped from Tata Steel and other high-profile tournaments. Without playing them he is stuck at open tournaments like US Chess Championship.

Magnus made clear that tournament organizers will need to choose between him or Hans. What's the point of choosing Hans?

At high level Chess, Hans career is all but over

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#256

Post by dwild »

dieselgate wrote: post #55
shakezula wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Id feel a lot worse for this kid if he hadn’t admitted to cheating before.

Yeah seriously. AFAIK all Carlsen said was "I believe he cheated more - and more recently - than he admitted"

He implied way more though :/ is that enough to justify a court case, no idea, but that's way more than enough to break his whole career.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#257

Post by dwild »

mannykannot wrote: post #85
MichaelCollins wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you previously still had respect for Hans, does that mean you considered it possible he is innocent of these specific cheating accusations? Supposing for the sake of argument that he really didn't cheat, isn't he well within his right to sue those defaming him? Personally I don't know; I see smoke but no fire and I'm not qualified to judge the meaning of that smoke. Hans' admitted history of cheating before online…

He has the option to sue, but the way to gain respect is to demonstrate his ability in an environment that controls for any means of cheating posited by those who suspect him of doing so.

He tried, he even suggested to do a match naked...

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#258

Post by remarkEon »

frumper wrote: post #243
remarkEon wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I am not a lawyer) Wouldn’t some aspect of the case be about whether the defendants actually knew for a fact if Hans was cheating? In other words, were they saying “Hans cheated in this tournament and we have the proof” or “Hans’ play has been super sketchy he’s cheating”. There seems to me a difference here, both in intent and scope.

Yes, but Hans has to prove they knowingly said false statements. The defendants don't have to prove what they said is true.

Hans has quite the uphill battle then.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#259

Post by fastball »

chongli wrote: post #230
fastball wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Billy Mitchell strategy doesn't make sense in this case though, since I guarantee you that all three named entities have more money to fight lawsuits than Hans Niemann.

We don’t know what Hans’s resources are. Perhaps his lawyers are working pro bono or otherwise agreed to take his case on contingency, with the rationale being that Hans is a public figure and this case may serve as advertisement for the law firm.

Same point applies, since a firm is not gonna take a pro bono (this would actually be contingency fee) case they don't think they can win, which was what the OP was saying.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#260

Post by maxbond »

okamiueru wrote: post #159
xzel wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just delay the live stream instead? There’s a whole lot of hyperbole in your comments. He definitely cheated in online play as chess.com and Hans himself has said. Don’t think there’s been any proof of OTB cheating so far and his OTB play seems to be pretty realistic at this point.

I don't understand the comments regarding delayed live stream. Splitting video feed, visually analysing a board from it, and feeding it feeding into an engine, are all rather straight forward things to do. And delayed feed for conspirators seems redundant.

If the stream is delayed such that the previous move is being broadcast as the current move is played, than a cheater would need to communicate with their collaborators in duplex. A transmitter is a lot easier to detect than a receiver. The other alternative would be carrying the entire cheating apparatus on your person, which also presents a larger "cross section", if you will.
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