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Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

hechingerreport.org

411–420 of 602 posts

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#411

1) The SAT is obviously a superior and more objective indicator of "will do well on schoolwork" than the other components of college applications. Essays on political topics, biggest weaknesses, and a time you had to overcome a challenge are obviously less standardized, more subject to whims of reviewer, and this is why they are being promoted. The idea that there are kids with terrible scores but great portfolios of…

Grades you got on actual schoolwork are a much more obvious predictor. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-12-22/grades-v...

Grades from different schools are not equivalent.

It's extremely difficult to compare grades from hundreds or thousands of different schools. You have to really know how rigorous each individual school's grade scale is.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#412

> One college purchased a data service that ranked high schools and factored those high school rankings into each application. Students from underserved high schools received a lower ranking, an admissions officer explained. It wasn’t a fair process. This is the crux of the affirmative action fascists. They picked what they thought was a “fair” set of criteria and it didn’t produce the outcome they wanted. They concl…

> They picked what they thought was a “fair” set of criteria and it didn’t produce the outcome they wanted. They concluded it wasn’t “fair” because it didn’t produce they wanted. That’s garbage.

No, that's science. If your goal is "more racially- and background-diverse admissions", and you set up a process to achieve that, and then find that your new process didn't work, then the process was wrong. So you come up with a new process.

> If you want certain communities to do better in education, you don’t manipulate the outcome by changing the selection criteria, you produce better candidates. Invest in education and safety in lower income areas.

The problem is that universities don't really have the ability to invest in education and safety in lower income areas. As rich as many top-tier private universities are, they don't have the resources to make a dent in this problem. So you have a chicken-and-egg problem: you can't fix the inequity that causes some kids to get a worse primary education, but you can't give them a better secondary education and allow that to flow back into their communities.

You have to break the cycle somewhere, and it seems pretty obvious that US federal and local governments have been failing miserably at improving education and safety in underserved communities. So you decide that you're going to find kids that your regular admissions practices would have rejected out of hand, but have the potential to learn and be successful at your school, even if there are gaps in their education. No, it's not a perfect plan, but what had been going on before wasn't working either. And maybe this won't work. But I think it's a worth trying.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can watch SAT prep videos and pirate prep books for free. GPA gets juiced all the time. Honor AP/IB had a solid premium. Very few extra curriculars that don't cost money / resources. The handful of kids (including me) that didn't pay 5 digits for fancy SAT prep at my school poured over some study guides and watched pirated VCDs and ended up doing better than kids who half hearted their private prep.

You don't even need to do that. There are plenty of free, legally accessible resources to prepare for the test available now- much more so than when I took the tests back in my youth.

Yeah, this was 20+ years ago at international school where materials had to be imported. SAT prep has always been fairly easily accessibkem

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#414

The greatest source of admissions inequity is childhood socioeconomic status. Dropping the SAT is so obviously not a fix for that I question the competency of the administrators who thought doing so was a good idea. The SAT is probably the most attainable piece of the application process for a poor kid to succeed at. You literally just need a guide book or two and enough time to study. One good smart friend helps if…

> You literally just need a guide book or two and enough time to study. I think it's important to realize just how extremely non-obvious this is, though, for many high school sophomores/juniors. I went to a decent high school and was in honors classes, and even I would have had zero idea test prep was even a thing, if a single science teacher hadn't randomly mentioned it in class once. I went to the school library an…

The benefits of SAT test prep seem to be a lot smaller than most people think https://slate.com/technology/2019/04/sat-prep-courses-do-the.... And in studies that have shown a benefit, the control group also tends to improve - meaning that simply taking one practice test ahead of time might have nearly as much of an impact as doing hours of test prep classes.

Also, just curious, how long ago was this that you were preparing for the SAT? It might have been non-obvious to study for it then, but I can't imagine that any kid today who is driven enough to want to get into a good college wouldn't just google this and find a bunch of practice resources.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#415

1) The SAT is obviously a superior and more objective indicator of "will do well on schoolwork" than the other components of college applications. Essays on political topics, biggest weaknesses, and a time you had to overcome a challenge are obviously less standardized, more subject to whims of reviewer, and this is why they are being promoted. The idea that there are kids with terrible scores but great portfolios of…

Grades you got on actual schoolwork are a much more obvious predictor. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-12-22/grades-v...

Following the la times article’s link to its primary source, it also says:

High school GPA as a predictor of college success results in a much higher representation of low income and underrepresented minority students in the top of the UC applicant pool, than do SAT scores.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately I feel convinced that it's a passing fad. I just hope that the pendulum does not swing too far the other way.

Maybe I'm in a bubble, but every anecdote I read online in the past year or two is someone royally fed up with liberal politics. On Twitter, Reddit, and real life, the majority of people keep complaining about crime, drugs, homelessness. Sounds like a perfect environment for a generation of conservatives to get elected. Hopefully they stay close to the center for a long time.

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Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately I feel convinced that it's a passing fad. I just hope that the pendulum does not swing too far the other way.

Maybe I'm in a bubble, but every anecdote I read online in the past year or two is someone royally fed up with liberal politics. On Twitter, Reddit, and real life, the majority of people keep complaining about crime, drugs, homelessness. Sounds like a perfect environment for a generation of conservatives to get elected. Hopefully they stay close to the center for a long time.

> Sounds like a perfect environment for a generation of conservatives to get elected. Hopefully they stay close to the center for a long time.

The problem is that conservatives (at least in the US, though this is happening in Europe too) have been swinging even farther to the right than most liberals have been swinging left.

I think we're in for some bad times if the leftists don't stop stepping all over their own feet, causing a backlash (that we're already seeing to some degree) that puts the autocrats in power irrevocably.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> places like Harvard or Oxford where getting in or not can make a huge impact on the entire rest of your life. ??

What part don't you understand?

I disagree that getting into those two schools makes such a huge impact.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If culturally-discriminating WASP admissions officers were the main barrier, one would not expect non-Jewish whites to be the most underrepresented group in the Ivy League. Circa 2019, looking at non-international students only: Ivy League US Ratio Mean SAT score [1] Jewish 17.2% 2.4% 7.16 n/a Asian 19.6% 5.3% 3.71 1216 White (incl. Jewish) 50.3% 61.5% 0.82 1148 Hispanic 11.4% 17.6% 0.65 1043 Black 7.8% 12.7% 0.61 96…

Sure you would. WASPs don’t like Jews and never have. Only the justifications have changed.

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Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm angry about the loss of abortion rights federally, the rise of Christian nationalism, politicians lying about election fraud, people calling their enemies pedophiles and communists, politicans not knowing what those words mean, and facism What is this center you think we are going back to because all I see are far right politicans and the end of American democracy

It's weird how the "Christian nationalism" meme has been pushed by the usual suspects when US church attendance is at an all-time low, and religious influence on politics is a shadow of its former self. My guess is it's a mixture of obsession with The Handmaid's Tale, and the need for an alternative pejorative term that can be applied to black and Hispanic conservatives.

The problem is that US political parties don't actually express the will of the majority of their constituents.

These "Christian nationalists" are not a majority in any shape or form, but the GOP as a party bends over backwards for them.

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