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Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

hechingerreport.org

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Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#221

Post by notart666 »

rayiner wrote: post #100

What surprises me is how many Asians support these measures. Make no mistake: our ability to progress as we have in America has depended on the fact that objective metrics cannot easily be gamed. The cost of test prep is a minor barrier to entry compared to the cultural knowledge required to write an essay that moves a WASP admissions officer, or the social capital and connections required to get involved in charitab…

Realistically everything you listed here all requires you to come from at least an upper middle class family to attempt. My family couldn't even afford for me to join a club in high school. There is in reality no real fair way of selecting candidates without knowing more personal information such as their families tax history, income level, demographics, citizenship, etc.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#222

Post by notart666 »

whoooooo123 wrote: post #39
joezydeco wrote: post #23

The "avalanche" of applications isn't just from the lack of standardized test scores, but the rise of the Common application platform. It's incredibly easy to fill it out once and then fire off a dozen applications in an afternoon.

This is why, in the UK system, you're only allowed to apply to five or fewer universities in the same academic cycle. (It's possible to enforce this because all applications go through the same centralised system.) You're also not allowed to apply to both Oxford and Cambridge in the same year - otherwise both universities would get twice as many applicants.

Honestly it wouldn't be as big of a deal if colleges accepted more applicants than they have seats for. The UofMN does just that and has a 70% acceptance rate and is a top public school. They have yet to run into any problems by doing so. While this might not work for colleges in say California or Ivy Leagues, for competitive and selective schools it's definitely an option almost none of them do.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#223

Post by FredPret »

themitigating wrote: post #188
FredPret wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm in a bubble, but every anecdote I read online in the past year or two is someone royally fed up with liberal politics. On Twitter, Reddit, and real life, the majority of people keep complaining about crime, drugs, homelessness. Sounds like a perfect environment for a generation of conservatives to get elected. Hopefully they stay close to the center for a long time.

I'm angry about the loss of abortion rights federally, the rise of Christian nationalism, politicians lying about election fraud, people calling their enemies pedophiles and communists, politicans not knowing what those words mean, and facism What is this center you think we are going back to because all I see are far right politicans and the end of American democracy

By the way, I don't know where you're from, but I bet it isn't currently fascist. In the same vein, most leftists shouldn't be called communists. Examples of fascism are the Nazis, Mussolini, that Spanish chap, and apartheid. The only modern incarnation that springs to my mind is the Phillipines.

I'm not saying I like the American right with their religion and their fixation on abortion (I do agree with them on some other things). I'm saying maybe there's a growing trend to the right, globally, and if there is, I hope it stops in the center and stays there for a long time, because I am a centrist.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#224

Post by WalterBright »

rayiner wrote: post #100

What surprises me is how many Asians support these measures. Make no mistake: our ability to progress as we have in America has depended on the fact that objective metrics cannot easily be gamed. The cost of test prep is a minor barrier to entry compared to the cultural knowledge required to write an essay that moves a WASP admissions officer, or the social capital and connections required to get involved in charitab…

The value of test prep is way, way overblown.

Besides, the idea that you have to be wealthy to avail yourself of test prep is absurd. I buy books at the thrift store all the time, and there are always test prep books there for a couple dollars. The local public library has them for free. yootoob is loaded with test prep videos. There are no excuses.

If you want to prep for the test,

1. read lots of books meant for adults

2. pay attention in math class

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#225

Post by thegrimmest »

themitigating wrote: post #215
thegrimmest wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's true at all. There have been many demonstrably effective short-term crime reduction strategies. Broken window theory being the most famous example. Shockingly, arresting and confining violent antisocial people reduces violence in society.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/22/nypd-fewer-a... The ‘clearances paradox’: could less policing actually reduce gun violence in New York? Your over simplifying the complex reasons behind crime.

I think you're oversimplifying the complex nature of policing. If we want peaceful, stable, societies we should model our policing systems on the places that most effectively deliver peace and stability. Two notable examples being Israel and Japan. Both places give police wide latitude to accomplish their goals and punish criminals harshly. Is Israeli policing discriminatory against Arabs? Yes. Is it effective? Also yes. Is Japanese prison inhumane by US standards? Yes. Is it effective in preventing the establishment of a criminal culture? Also yes.

Violent antisocial behaviour presents itself in a small percentage of young (mostly) males. It can be predicted as early as age 4 and effective intervention is very difficult. Most people who present with it tend to age out of the behaviour by around 30. Therefore the only effective strategy to protect the rest of us from this tiny fraction of people is to confine them until they age out. This is basically what our criminal justice system does, however imperfectly.

If we were to design a system eyes-open, knowing these constraints, with the goal of minimizing violent crime, we'd:

1. Enact age-based confinement - teenagers who present with violent antisocialism are very likely to reoffend in their 20s. Violent teenagers and young adults should be confined until they've aged out.

2. Structure prison culture - prison should not be crime university. Criminals should not be permitted to form a culture. Violent antisocialism should not be tolerated in prison. Instead they should be given the tools to find a legitimate place in society upon their eventual release. Japan does this quite well.

3. Seal records after release - criminal records relating to youth-associated violent antisocialism should be sealed. People we release should have a clear path to reintegration without discrimination.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#226

Post by WalterBright »

notart666 wrote: post #221
rayiner wrote: post #100

What surprises me is how many Asians support these measures. Make no mistake: our ability to progress as we have in America has depended on the fact that objective metrics cannot easily be gamed. The cost of test prep is a minor barrier to entry compared to the cultural knowledge required to write an essay that moves a WASP admissions officer, or the social capital and connections required to get involved in charitab…

Realistically everything you listed here all requires you to come from at least an upper middle class family to attempt. My family couldn't even afford for me to join a club in high school. There is in reality no real fair way of selecting candidates without knowing more personal information such as their families tax history, income level, demographics, citizenship, etc.

I'm not aware of any clubs in my high school that charged its members. Not even the Boy Scouts.

None of the colleges I applied to asked for my family's tax history or income level, except for on the separate financial aid application.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#227

Post by WalterBright »

notart666 wrote: post #222
whoooooo123 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why, in the UK system, you're only allowed to apply to five or fewer universities in the same academic cycle. (It's possible to enforce this because all applications go through the same centralised system.) You're also not allowed to apply to both Oxford and Cambridge in the same year - otherwise both universities would get twice as many applicants.

Honestly it wouldn't be as big of a deal if colleges accepted more applicants than they have seats for. The UofMN does just that and has a 70% acceptance rate and is a top public school. They have yet to run into any problems by doing so. While this might not work for colleges in say California or Ivy Leagues, for competitive and selective schools it's definitely an option almost none of them do.

Colleges do overadmit, including elite colleges, because a predictable percentage decline the admission.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#228

Post by 0x445442 »

bombcar wrote: post #122
0x445442 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet somehow they never decry the race inequity of lucrative ventures like the NBA player pool.

Arguably there you have an exterior reliable measurement of ability (and if there was inappropriate discrimination against Asian basketball players, you should expect a team to realize it and get a winning team for cheaper).

Of course there is objective measures, that’s the point. And it’s why no sane person thinks the race inequity within the NBA player pool is a problem. The problem lies in the hypocrisy of crying about systemic racism or sexism as the reason for inequity when talking about college admissions or C level jobs but never talking about the same inequities in nursing or iron workers or NBA players.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#229

Post by WalterBright »

bombcar wrote: post #141
hbbwebw wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s more complicated than that because the students expect to get jobs after completing the degree, if they even can complete the degree. For example, Im not great at art and don’t really have a passion for it. Should an art school accept me even though I’ll never have a career as an artist? Keep in mind I’d be taking a spot from someone who could. I have no doubt they’ll be able to improve my abilities but…

I wonder what percentage of people work in the field their degree is in. I suspect it’s very high for some (law, pilot, doctor) and very low for others (history).

I was trained in mechanical engineering, but write software. I still find my college education to be of great help.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#230

Post by necrotic_comp »

preommr wrote: post #40
Onanymous wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. Education is not about taking a course or reading bunch of books. The big part of education is being able to directly ask a knowledgeable person once you're stuck. You can ask the community of course but the quality of community answers is more than often just trash.

> The big part of education is being able to directly ask a knowledgeable person once you're stuck. Stuck on what? For an undergrad, those problems can easily be solved by going online or to a tutor for a fraction of the cost. And that's for STEM based problems, humanities is all about flattering whatever opinions the professor personally holds. The best piece of advice I got was from one of my english highschool tea…

"humanities is all about flattering whatever opinions the professor personally holds" - maybe at some universities, but not at a good liberal arts school.
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