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What really happened aboard Air France 447

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Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#261
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't explicitly state that it is something you can hear in the recording, I made the assumption that the "blackbox" contain not just an audio recording but a log of the computer system -- what actions it took, which is how they know the co-pilot was pulling back the entire time -- and they're basing it off of that. Although the way they phrase it (reading back through the relevant paragraphs now) with the assum…

I was thinking of ". . .even though the word "Stall!" will blare through the cockpit 75 times." Looking back over it, I suppose that's not quite what that means. . .

No, it's exactly what that means. Search for the youtube link to the Aeroperu recording above and you'll be able to hear how much blaring there is.

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#262
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your link doesn't say that there isn't a clear chain of command, it says that there should be a culture that allows professional disagreement or calling to attention. Just because the captain is declared top dog doesn't mean that protocol demands subordinates must remain quiet.

BTW, who is commanding the plane (by inputs) and who is commanding the crew are entirely separate questions. I think one of the serious issues that MUST be addressed here is the issue of conflicting commands to the plane. Two options.... 1) Place all controls between the pilots so they can easily see what eachother is doing or 2) Place a selection switch and indicator that allows a pilot to unambiguously take control…

What happens if they're fighting each other?

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#263
post #44

I don't think the average person realizes that for aircraft pilots ice is a constant worry even in tropical areas of the world. The temperature drops 1.98C for every 1,000 feet you go up so you can see quite quickly how fast you can enter an area below the freezing point of water. Icing of the pitot tube and carburetor are a constant worry at least for prop driven aircraft. Right from day one you're taught what to lo…

I never got far enough along to learn about wing icing I ran out of money for lessons

Hey, me too! (And 9/11 happened which made it a lot harder for foreigners to fly.)

But I did have the opportunity to get a lesson in how to avoid carb icing without carb heat when I pulled the carb heat control straight out of the dash on our 152. ;-)

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#264
post #30

Co-pilot Robert, after finally getting full control back from Co-pilot Bonin: "Damn it, we're going to crash... This can't be happening!" Co-pilot Bonin, who had been pulling back & stalling the plane during the crisis: "But what's happening?" Pretty much sums it up. I am thinking that perhaps Bonin had shellshock & may not have even realized he was holding the stick back. Perhaps the more experienced Robert didn't t…

I think the simplest solution to the mismatched stick issue is to use servo motors to replicate the old situation--the movement of each stick mirrors the movements of the other. A pilot wouldn't have to look for some stick position display, or indicator light, if they can easily feel the deflection of the stick.

Motors can fail.

Use mechanical feedback. Not necessarily rigid connection, but at least some kind of elastic coupling or something. Or, heck, connect them rigidly.

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#265
post #163

One question: Why are they not speaking English? I heard from fatal command mistakes with pilots an Asian country and now everyone has to speak English. Is this again some stupid patriotism thing (i am German, i know the French attitudes), but i seriously thought to prevent command errors everyone has to speak the international aviation language.

i seriously thought to prevent command errors everyone has to speak the international aviation language

It's only international over radio. In the cockpit, you can speak whatever language you want.

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does: there's an audible warning that says the words "DUAL INPUT" The English translation of the BEA's third interim report on the flight is available here: http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601e3.en/pdf/f-cp0906... It includes the full CVR transcript at the end, which shows that the dual input alarm activated five times.

I think that part of the problem here is that the plane is so far out of trim and CRM has gone completely out of the window that psychologically at least the mental workload on the junior pilot has caused him to "freeze". Far worse, imaging a situation where one of the control inputs fails; i.e. constantly produces nose up input. Can one of the inputs be suspended / turned off?

Then link the sticks mechanically.

Still, if the panicky guy is unconsciously trying to out-muscle you, well, then you reach over and punch him in the face.

If even that fails... uh... I guess you're in deep deep doo-doo at that point.

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#267
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the dark, in a storm, you have no reference points. In a moving plane, your reference frame is further confusing. There are stories of pilots making a nice, 1-g bank turning the craft upside down and not noticing until it was too late due to white-out conditions. Gravity is only one of the forces acting on the pilots' bodies.

Aka a graveyard spiral: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graveyard_spiral This is what killed JFK Jr.

Yes, thank you. I was also thinking of a second well known example that happened in South America I believe.

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#268
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airbus' have priority override button which will allow the pilot not flying (PNF) to take command of the aircraft. In hydraulic or "direct" flight controls, both sticks move at the same rate, you need to be stronger than the other pilot. Normally the autopilot and flight control system would have the authority to override the pilot actions (common on A320 etc.) but not all planes have that feature. In addtion, if the…

Should not one pilot say "I Got Her" and tell other pilot that you do nothing, I will take care of it.

In all cockpits, there is usually a strongly defined system of who is currently in control. At one point you can see this happening - one of the pilots declares "I have control". In normal flying conditions, any time flight control passes over between pilots there should be a declaration along those lines. However, the reactions of the pilots in this situation don't seem to be entirely in line with what they should have been doing, which is a major contributing cause to the crash.

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#269
post #110
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NTSB concluded that 990 was a homicide. A relief pilot assumed control after take-off and then deliberately crashed the aircraft. From what I hear, it wasn't a fun week at the RI Medical Examiner's office.

the other similar incidents are Birgenair Flight 301, where the pitot tubes were blocked because of insect nests, resulting in pilot confusion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgenair_Flight_301 and Aeroperu Flight 603, where the pitot tubes had been covered by maintenance workers and not removed prior to takeoff, also resulting in pilot confusion and lack of confidence in instrument readings: http://en.wikipedia.org/…

Yes, I keep hearing about pitot tube problems... I thought the Egypt Air flight I was thinking of had the same problem but I can't find information about it. It might be harder to find because I'm not sure the plane actually crashed.

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#270
The pilots, mostly, acted legitatemly based on the flawed and lacking data of which they were presented with.

Initially, the captain's non-fear of the storm was based on incorrect weather data based on a mis-configured radar system. His data seemingly grossly underestimated the severity of the weather: had he had the correct data originally he would almost definitely, like every other pilot in the region, known to avoid the area to which they eventually flew into. As soon as the radar was configured correctly, the pilots banked left to avoid it as best they could. How common a misconfigured radar is and how easily it is done is perhaps the most vital piece of information here. No aircraft should be allowed to fly with such important data being incorrect, ever. This needs to be checked and re-checked far better in future. It is the original link in this fatal chain. It was wrong data, not a wrong human assessment of data, that started off this crash sequence. Given the original radar data, the captain made the right call. And there's nothing obsentibly wrong with him going to take a nap, insofar as that's typical protocol.

Due to flying into the wrong weather-zone, the autopilot turns itself off. And that's that from there. Given that this is such a rare event it's notification is relatively minor within the grand scheme of fear and confusion that one would expect to exist for such an event that so drastically affects flying itself. There exists such a massive difference between autopilot and pilot-driven flying that there needs to be an unignorable physical presentation difference between the two: perhaps gently vibrating the control stick, changing the entire colour of the cabin (to, say, orange) using some LEDs and even changing the posture of a pilot's seat to a more upright position to subtly but distincly make for a different "feel" to computer-led flying. You'd just know based on these indicators alone. Perhaps it'd be harder to mentally block the stall warnings based on the notion that "we can't be stalling, the airliner won't let us" when it feels like you're personally in control of the whole airliner. They didn't just "ignore" the 70+ stall warnings, they completely ignored the very idea that it was possible for them to be stalling at all.

Addressing either of these two issues alone could have helped save AF447. Evaluating the other problems presented, like why two pilots can input vastly different instructions through their joysticks with both being in ignorance of one another clearly needs to be addressed (perhaps even a weighted average towards the more experienced pilot's input rather than a straight up average?); why there existed no clear chain-of-command; why the captain didn't get back quickly enough and how to "force" captains to be quicker; the best way to brief exactly what you've been doing more quickly; and perhaps a new technology that's basically "Clippy" for flying, that could say things like "You're in a stall, consider pointing down?"

This was a tragic mistake that ought not to have happen. Based on so much, let's not so easily condemn the pilots actions to stupidity and instead take a moment to consider the sheer horror they suffered after commanding such a massively complex machine in such challenging conditions with so much noise, lights and general "WTF"-ness.

Consider that environment the next time you get frustrated investigating a non-obviousl compile error in your quiet, air-conditioned, well-lit office.

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