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What really happened aboard Air France 447

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Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#21
my dad is a captain, very experienced -- flies 777s, has > 20k hours and is trained in both airbus and boeings.

over dinner i once asked him "so what's the most exciting or difficult situation you've even been in?"

"hm... nothing i can think of, it is all pretty boring, really"

"i mean c'mon, there's got to be something!"

"you see? if you do things by the book plus a little on the safe side it usually works out that you are never in an exciting situation -- my job is to ensure that even the most unlikely exciting situations become more unlikely."

in this particular instance, it seems that there are a few actions that could've avoided the whole situation had the people in charge had the mentality of "by the book plus a little on the safe side". the most glaring one is that the other planes in the area diverted to avoid the storm. another: the captain should have made clear who is in charge.

of course, this is very easy for me to type from the comfort of my office without any situational stress.

scary!

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#22
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which raises a very good question, when would you ever want that joystick behaviour?

This is a fantastic question. I can think of no situation where this behavior would be desireable, but then again IANAP

IAAP (not commercial) and that sounds like an awful way to do things. An important aspect of cockpit resource management is to know who is controlling the airplanes, and part of that is always positively verbally transferring control, with confirmation. "I have the plane." "You have the plane." There is no situation where you want two people to both have input at the same time.

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#23

Looks like one issue might be that all the instruments show what the aircraft is doing and what is happening outside, but it doesn't show what the pilots are doing. When we design interfaces, we of course assume the user is aware of their own actions and embodied state. But I guess when there are multiple users we need to help them be able to sense the actions/state of others. Linking the two sticks is one way, anoth…

> the user is aware of their own actions and embodied state

particularly unaware in this instance. due to the turbulence and general confusion it is very likely both pilots were disoriented. it is possible and likely that their senses were conveying wrong information to them.

(most people experience some mild form of this at some point when in a car or plane that's not moving next to one that is moving slowly and it feels as if you are moving backwards)

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#24
Very insightful. Indeed it seems that one of the main contributor was the copilot's attitude (at least one of them, pulling back on the joystick all the way)

02:13:40 (Bonin) Mais je suis à fond à cabrer depuis tout à l'heure!

Obviously they were in panic mode and did not take time to think - they were reacting to the "plane go down" message by a "pull back" mode, where they should have been trying to understand why they were losing altitude.

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#25

The men are utterly failing to engage in an important process known as crew resource management, or CRM. They are failing, essentially, to cooperate. It is not clear to either one of them who is responsible for what, and who is doing what. I have read a few other transcripts from crashed planes and this seems to be the most common and significant contributor. I see variations of this problem almost daily in my day to…

This was also one of the points of Malcom Gladwell in one of his book ("the Tipping point"), where he talked about what went wrong in several examples of air crashes: lack of human cooperation at its best.

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#26
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author did touch on it: "According to Camilleri, not one of US Airway's 17 Airbus 330s has ever been in alternate law. Therefore, Bonin may have assumed that the stall warning was spurious because he didn't realize that the plane could remove its own restrictions against stalling and, indeed, had done so."

by "ignore" I mean they didn't acknowledge it, they didn't once mention the obnoxious noise and the implications. Even if they believe that they could not stall the plane, would they not mention it as something to consider? Looking back on the account of events through the entire thing from start to finish was little more than 5 minutes, so maybe they didn't have time in the panic to mention it, but it still seems st…

As the article mentions, aviation experts are rightly bamboozled by this.

The closest I've come to flying was Chuck Yeager's AFT on the Commodore 64, but even then I knew presence of engine power does not preclude a stall if your pitch is extreme.

Without knowing that Bonin had been pulling-back the whole time, I guess Robert and Dubois were searching for non-obvious reasons (and struggling, with the altered cognition under stress that the article also mentions).

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#28
post #21

my dad is a captain, very experienced -- flies 777s, has > 20k hours and is trained in both airbus and boeings. over dinner i once asked him "so what's the most exciting or difficult situation you've even been in?" "hm... nothing i can think of, it is all pretty boring, really" "i mean c'mon, there's got to be something!" "you see? if you do things by the book plus a little on the safe side it usually works out that…

Uncle (in-law) pretty much says the same thing.

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#29
I've followed the discussion of the AF447 investigation on several flight discussion forums.

The PF (Bonin) apparently never became aware of his angle of attack (once the airplane fully stalled, AOA was absurdly high). He did not seem to be aware that his constant inputs had caused the Airbus's THS (trimmable horizontal stabilizer, horizontal flaps on the tail) to deflect to maximum in order to try to keep the nose up. Therefore when he tried to input stick up (nose down) several times briefly, and there was no obvious response (the computer takes a while to reduce THS elevation in response to opposing input), who knows what he thought -- maybe that all readings were incorrect.

Strangely, Bonin was the one pilot who had significant recent glider experience as I recall. The Airbus computer even in "alternate law" functions nothing like a glider (only "direct law" is sort of close to direct input), so maybe that further confused him.

In my opinion, at night, over an ocean, in a storm, with no visibility, in possibly significant turbulance, a modern aircraft cutting off Autopilot for any reason other than computer failure is completely unacceptable. A computer should be able to fly as well as a human under those circumstances.

People suggesting that on airliner forums get flamed. But it's true. Most pilots kept up the refrain that a computer cannot safely fly by gps and gyros unless they also have airspeed. Which is true. It's dangerous to fly if you don't have true airspeed (gyros and gps cannot accurate provide relative wind speed). However, if pitot tubes are frozen and the computer no longer has valid airspeed, the pilots no longer have valid airspeed either. Pitch and power is all they can do. The computer can do that just as well. All it needs to know is aircraft weight, which can be entered (maybe it is entered) before takeoff and automatically adjusted to account for fuel consumption.

There are a bunch of factors that contributed to the accident:

Pitots shouldn't have frozen.

Lack of Air France training for controlling an aircraft at altitude with the computer in "alternate law" (mode without full flight envelope protection; it's therefore possible to stall).

The command structure in the cockpit without the Captain (who had just gone on break) actually had Bonin in command, even though the co-pilot in the left seat outranked him... AF has since changed that. CRM (crew resource management) was poor; the co-pilot in the left seat didn't try to take control until way too late. The co-pilot was preoccupied with where the Captain was rather than offering constructive input on how to fly.

Bonin was not adequately aware of what his inputs were doing, or what the plane's Angle of Attack was, and did not react properly to the stall warning which in almost every case at high altitude means drop the nose, not raise it (though without valid airspeed there's a risk of overspeed which can cause a new set of problems).

The Airbus computers had some quirks; stall warnings stop if airspeed drops too low (due to some computer programming logic involving low airspeed, AOA sensors, and the result being silencing the stall warnings).

Nobody believed a passenger aircraft would be so stable during a full stall. This undoubtedly contributed to confusion about whether they were actually stalled. The Airbus's computer setting the trimmable horizontal stabilizer to max nose-up deflection, in response to Bonin's almost constant nose-up input, possibly contributed to the stability during stall.

Angle of Attack information may not have been adequately displayed to the PF (Bonin) -- the black box doesn't record data from the right set of instruments, so nobody knows what Bonin had on his screen.

There was poor notification on the co-pilot's side of what the PF (Bonin) was doing. Unlike traditional aircraft, it is not easy to see what the pilot in the other seat is doing with the stick.

There was poor notification on either side of the cockpit when the other pilot took control. When the co-pilot took control, Bonin almost immediately took control back, and it's not clear either of them knew what the other was trying to do. Apparently there's a light that indicates override, but who would notice such things under that amount of stress?

IOW, it was a disaster from top to bottom. Usually in aircraft accidents there's a chain of events, but in this case there were so many possible contributing causes that other than having better pitots that didn't freeze over, solving any one other problem may not have broken the chain.

Re: What really happened aboard Air France 447

#30
Co-pilot Robert, after finally getting full control back from Co-pilot Bonin: "Damn it, we're going to crash... This can't be happening!"

Co-pilot Bonin, who had been pulling back & stalling the plane during the crisis: "But what's happening?"

Pretty much sums it up. I am thinking that perhaps Bonin had shellshock & may not have even realized he was holding the stick back. Perhaps the more experienced Robert didn't think to ask "are you pulling back the stick?" because that would be like asking "did you make sure the computer is plugged into the wall outlet?", i.e. it's so stupid & simple, that can't be "it".

There are a few things I could think that would be worth adding.

- Add a display that shows the current positions of both control sticks. Add an alarm when the two sticks are not within a certain margin of the each other, if both are engaged. Such as if one is full forward & the other is full back.

- Make clearer warnings about the implications of the "alternate law" mode. Such as a warning like "Stalling possible". Also maybe put an alarm in the pilot resting area that would relay when warnings are detected like stall or switching to alternate law.

- Delineate command better, e.g. Captain, Co-pilot #1, Co-pilot #2 so that who is in charge is clear.

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