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Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

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Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#241

Post by miamibre »

jjeaff wrote: post #213
grogers wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but I think if they knew the statements were false (or with reckless disregard for the truth) then it would be slander. This is the "actual malice" standard. But in this case it seems absurdly unlikely that Niemann could prove this.

Is this guy enough of a public figure to require the actual malice standard? Because for a private citizen, you would only have to prove that the accusations were wrong, assuming the topic is also not considered to be of public concern. But maybe chess championships and champions are a big enough deal to be considered public.

In this case everyone mentioned in the suit public figure within the worldwide chess playing community which would suffice. Also this event has had international coverage from multiple sources which would be presented as evidence that they are indeed public figures if there was any doubt.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#242

Post by ajhurliman »

Rodeoclash wrote: post #219
ajhurliman wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There actually is, computer-aided humans can beat computers, in fact.

My understanding is that computer aided humans lose vs pure computer opponents. The human is a handicap.

This is an old citation[0] but it's pretty difficult to find much on it. It doesn't look like it's very popular but I remember reading an article years ago that discussed "advanced" or "centaur" chess (human + computer teams) and their ability to beat computers alone. This is assuming that the human is already at the forefront of human performance in chess, though.

[0] https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/11/wh...

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#243

Post by frumper »

remarkEon wrote: post #78
jstx1 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nothing has been proven The court cases won't be about whether he cheated. They'll mostly be about whether the people he's suing could legally say the things they've said.

(I am not a lawyer) Wouldn’t some aspect of the case be about whether the defendants actually knew for a fact if Hans was cheating? In other words, were they saying “Hans cheated in this tournament and we have the proof” or “Hans’ play has been super sketchy he’s cheating”. There seems to me a difference here, both in intent and scope.

Yes, but Hans has to prove they knowingly said false statements. The defendants don't have to prove what they said is true.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#244

Post by WORMS_EAT_WORMS »

alephxyz wrote: post #236
WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #96

I feel bad for Magnus. It looks like the CEO of chess.com totally played him. Chess.com sponsors and owns so much of the Chess community. They have more power and influence than even FIDE over the players IMO. - GM sponsors? Chess.com money. - Chess streamers? Chess.com money. Magnus joining forces in a more professional setting via the acquisition created a serious conflict of interest. Not a perfect example, but im…

I think this whole drama is on chess.com for allowing cheaters back on their platform and not having a public wall of shame. They've known that Hans had cheated online and never disclosed it. Now they are trying to fool us into thinking they're on the public's side. If you don't penalize cheaters early on then every kid that's promising at chess will start to cheat online to boost their stream views and to have enoug…

Well... then they would have to give up that sweet, sweet power and money.

Chess.com on all fronts has been only acting in their own self interest ($) and not for the sport of the game.

And now, hilariously, Magnus is not only in bed with that but he can't get out / is part of it.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#245

Post by iLoveOncall »

eimrine wrote: post #220
iLoveOncall wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any idea of what is in place to prevent cheating in those competitions? The only possible improvement would be for the players to be naked. This is just an easy excuse. "He cheated!" "There are anticheat measures" "They're not good enough" It's a cycle that can never be solved. The loser can always claim the anticheat measures were "not enough". You know what. I think Carlsen has cheated in every single o…

> The only possible improvement would be for the players to be naked. Something might be placed inside the organism. > I think Carlsen has cheated in every single one of his games. Prove the contrary. That's easy. He streamed a lot of games with the tightest time requirements happening in the discipline, kind of 3 minutes per player plus extra 1 second per move. The speed of that game is so high that there is simply…

> That's easy. He streamed a lot of games with the tightest time requirements happening in the discipline, kind of 3 minutes per player plus extra 1 second per move. The speed of that game is so high that there is simply no time for having a conversations with cheating device.

Conversations? A cheating software can read the board and even move the pieces for him, this is ridiculous. 100% a cheater.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#246

Post by spiralx »

anonAndOn wrote: post #138
jjk166 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clench in morse code?

If it can cure depression, I don't see why it can't also improve your chess game.[0] [0] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/331807.How_to_Good_By...

I knew what book that was going to be :D

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#247

Post by inanutshellus »

modeless wrote: post #46
jstx1 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nothing has been proven The court cases won't be about whether he cheated. They'll mostly be about whether the people he's suing could legally say the things they've said.

The legality may depend on whether he cheated or not. Truth is an absolute defense to libel.

Right, but... who has the onus to prove anything in a libel case? Does the defendant have to prove cheating happened, or the offense have to prove no cheating happened? Or... neither?

Or perhaps it's neither an something more like "an expert, with a lifetime's worth of domain-specific intuition, should be allowed to express an opinion based on that intuition"?

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#248

Post by modeless »

inanutshellus wrote: post #247
modeless wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legality may depend on whether he cheated or not. Truth is an absolute defense to libel.

Right, but... who has the onus to prove anything in a libel case? Does the defendant have to prove cheating happened, or the offense have to prove no cheating happened? Or... neither? Or perhaps it's neither an something more like "an expert, with a lifetime's worth of domain-specific intuition, should be allowed to express an opinion based on that intuition"?

The defendant isn't required to prove cheating happened, but it sure would win the case for them, so obviously they're going to try as hard as they can.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#249

Post by kennyloginz »

Maursault wrote: post #201
2bitencryption wrote: post #44

Can someone explain something - Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? I.e. beating Magnus, Elo rating, etc. I know chess.com did an analysis, which I've read, but I'm hoping someone more impartial could explain it. In the scenario where he did not cheat, is he really on a Bobby Fischer-like ascend…

> Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? ...In the scenario where he did not cheat, is he really on a Bobby Fischer-like ascendance? I think so, yes, and even considerably moreso. According to Yosha Iglesias[1] and her anonymous mathematician friend, for 5 tournaments in a row starting at the Phila…

Yosha has admitted that their analysis was flawed… https://twitter.com/IglesiasYosha/status/1574308784566067201...

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#250

Post by kennyloginz »

p5a0u9l wrote: post #203
2bitencryption wrote: post #44

Can someone explain something - Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? I.e. beating Magnus, Elo rating, etc. I know chess.com did an analysis, which I've read, but I'm hoping someone more impartial could explain it. In the scenario where he did not cheat, is he really on a Bobby Fischer-like ascend…

What I don't think most people are appreciating in this thread is that at this level of play the cheating can be extremely subtle and yet extremely effective. None of the players in this dramas are talking about a cheater having a hidden mind link to a chess engine. These games typically hinge on one or two crucial moments. GMs need only one bit of information at the right moment to play several hundred points above…

I think most people realize this. But, how would this even work with the time delay and a closed environment?
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