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Living descendants of Mark Antony

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Re: Living descendants of Mark Antony

#41

Post by kgwgk »

pmontra wrote: post #12
e2021 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the actual name Marcus Antonius? I wonder why we use the anglicised version for him, but the latin names for most other Romans

Maybe for the same reason the names of famous cities (especially if already famous in the past) are translated into foreign languages. Examples. Roma is Rome in English and Milano is Milan. London is Londra in Italian but Manchester is Manchester and Liverpool is Liverpool. Livorno (a small Italian town where English poets liked to spend their time) is Leghorn. Aachen (a German city that used to be the residence of C…

My understanding - but I could be wrong - is that the local name of Milan through history only became Milano recently.

Re: Living descendants of Mark Antony

#42

Post by warbler73 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #20
kitd wrote: post #10

Is this a world record for proven genealogy? I read somewhere that the British monarchy held the record tracing back to mid-Saxon times. This blows that out of the water by about 600 years.

> Is this a world record for proven genealogy? I read somewhere that the British monarchy held the record tracing back to mid-Saxon times. China did not have a dark age and so descent from antiquity is relatively common there. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_Confucius_in_th... , 80 generations of the family of Confucius have been recorded. What would qualify this as "proven" to you?

It's not proven at all. He takes speculative jumps to close gaps:

> My conclusion is that his younger sister, Queen Nana (AD 295–337), married King Mirian III of Caucasian Iberia (AD 290–362).

In a footnote he admits that the ancestry of the wife of Mirian III is unknown.

Re: Living descendants of Mark Antony

#43

Post by NeoTar »

rongopo wrote: post #32
LarsDu88 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the correct answer. The entire population of Europe is about as descended from Mark Antony as that Georgian noble house. Only the Y-chromosome is lineally passed across such long time spans

Does it follow that same would apply for all humans of Mark Antony's time?

Kinda!

This is covered in Randall Munroe's (of XKCD fame) latest book - What If 2; chapter 33 "Ancestor Fraction"

Obviously a human who did not have any children cannot be the ancestor of anyone - this includes the circa 50% of humans who died during infancy, and the 25% of adult humans who did not have children.

Also, for some people who had children the line will die-out; if you have four children all of whom die in infancy, your line dies out. If none of your grand-children have children, your line dies out. Randall quotes a study which estimated that this applies to 40% of all people who ever had children.

So, taken together roughly 25% of all humans who were ever born went on to have children and form a part of the modern human 'ancestor web'.

In Summary: If you picked a random human of any age from the time of Mark Antony there is a roughly 25% they are an ancestor to all humans. If they are an adult that rises to 50%, and if they already have kids it rises to about 62.5%.

Re: Living descendants of Mark Antony

#44

Post by fmajid »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #16
tinco wrote: post #11

Plot twist at the end there, as the author of the article is themselves a prince of the family of living descendants of Mark Anthony. Although he's pretty humble about it before breaking the news it did make me double take. To me the amazing thing is that they managed to hold on to both power and money for so long. It took 1800 years for them to lose power, and 200 years later they're still sending their princes to P…

> Plot twist at the end there, as the author of the article is themselves a prince of the family of living descendants of Mark Anthony. That's not a plot twist. It's a strategy as old as civilization itself, probably older. It's mentioned right at the front of the piece: > In Ancient Greek and Roman cultures, having a distinguished family lineage determined your social standing. This practice has continued to exist w…

> That's not a plot twist. It's a strategy as old as civilization itself, probably older.

Yep, the good ol' not-so-humble-brag.

Re: Living descendants of Mark Antony

#45

Post by al_be_back »

0) Politics is a messy, confusing affair, even by-nature (if you will). I would take such lineage claims with a generous pinch of salt ;)

1) the Ancient world was gravely brutal. Sex, Pregnancy and Fighting were more often used synonyms than most may realize today. Hard to tell how many children Mark Anthony knew he himself 'fathered', let alone us today. Slavery and serfdom was rife in/around Europe up to 1400s, and in parts up to as late as mid-1800s!

2) Bolsheviks were ruthless in removing the Tsar+family + opposition. it's highly unlikely they would've been so lean on such famous linage from little ancient Rome; they were full of paranoia.

Article's a great read though.

Re: Living descendants of Mark Antony

#46

Post by pmontra »

soco wrote: post #25
pmontra wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe for the same reason the names of famous cities (especially if already famous in the past) are translated into foreign languages. Examples. Roma is Rome in English and Milano is Milan. London is Londra in Italian but Manchester is Manchester and Liverpool is Liverpool. Livorno (a small Italian town where English poets liked to spend their time) is Leghorn. Aachen (a German city that used to be the residence of C…

How about the German city of Stuttgart rendered as Stoccarda(FR) or Estugarda(PT) but not in other languages... no idea why.

It's Stoccarda in Italian too.

Re: Living descendants of Mark Antony

#47

Post by pmontra »

kgwgk wrote: post #41
pmontra wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe for the same reason the names of famous cities (especially if already famous in the past) are translated into foreign languages. Examples. Roma is Rome in English and Milano is Milan. London is Londra in Italian but Manchester is Manchester and Liverpool is Liverpool. Livorno (a small Italian town where English poets liked to spend their time) is Leghorn. Aachen (a German city that used to be the residence of C…

My understanding - but I could be wrong - is that the local name of Milan through history only became Milano recently.

The latin name was Mediolanum. Apparently it comes from Celtic Medhelan, in the middle of the plain, and it should be a common name also on the northern side of the Alps (any French person can confirm?). I googled a bit to find when the name switched from Latin to Italian with no success. You could check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Milan but I suggest to give a look at the Italian version of the page with more maps, if you're interested in that sort of things.

Re: Living descendants of Mark Antony

#48

Post by pmontra »

wikfwikf wrote: post #37
soco wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the German city of Stuttgart rendered as Stoccarda(FR) or Estugarda(PT) but not in other languages... no idea why.

The city we call Antwerp in English is known as Amberes in Spanish. When you know that the French name is Anvers it makes a little more sense.

Anversa in Italian.

By the way, Leuven (Belgium) is Lovanio even if I hardly heard that translated name until they hosted the UCI World Championship in 2021.

Re: Living descendants of Mark Antony

#49

Post by kgwgk »

pmontra wrote: post #47
kgwgk wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding - but I could be wrong - is that the local name of Milan through history only became Milano recently.

The latin name was Mediolanum. Apparently it comes from Celtic Medhelan, in the middle of the plain, and it should be a common name also on the northern side of the Alps (any French person can confirm?). I googled a bit to find when the name switched from Latin to Italian with no success. You could check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Milan but I suggest to give a look at the Italian version of the page wit…

I was thinking about the name in Lombard - Milan - which is the same name used in some other European languages. But I don’t know when Italian became the main language in the region.

Re: Living descendants of Mark Antony

#50

Post by kgwgk »

wikfwikf wrote: post #37
soco wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the German city of Stuttgart rendered as Stoccarda(FR) or Estugarda(PT) but not in other languages... no idea why.

The city we call Antwerp in English is known as Amberes in Spanish. When you know that the French name is Anvers it makes a little more sense.

Maybe Anvers is derived from Amberes: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anvers#cite_note-espagnol-5
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