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Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

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Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#271

Post by talideon »

theamk wrote: post #199
echelon wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snap makes sense, but it'll take time for the dust to settle. Just like Unity / Wayland. Applications like Firefox, IntelliJ, Chromium, etc. shouldn't be tied to system dependencies managed by apt. They should be entirely monolithic and hermetic. Long term this deb vs snap approach will make sense and be good for Desktop Linux.

Is snap enough of improvent over deb to replace it? Sometimes yes. Is snap enough of improvement of Flakpak to ignore community standard and deal witb all the user hostile craziness like non-removable updater? No way. I hope it goes the way of the Mir and upstart - replaced with a competitor and silently removed.

Upstart predates systemd by four years. It solved real problems at the time and they kept it going until Debian transitioned to systemd. Unlike systemd, upstart supported sysvinit scripts, so it made sense to transition when Debian did. Bringing that up is maybe not the best example you could choose to bash them with.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#272

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

echelon wrote: post #190
thomaslord wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox is a particularly interesting case because it has a bunch of issues that only exist when it's installed via snap. I just recently ripped out the default snap version and installed via the official PPA, and Firefox seems to be running much smoother now. For basically any app I use that's installed via snap, I eventually run into a gamebreaking issue and have to remove the snap version and find a normal .deb to…

Snap makes sense, but it'll take time for the dust to settle. Just like Unity / Wayland. Applications like Firefox, IntelliJ, Chromium, etc. shouldn't be tied to system dependencies managed by apt. They should be entirely monolithic and hermetic. Long term this deb vs snap approach will make sense and be good for Desktop Linux.

> Just like Unity / Wayland.

So, flatpak will win, after years of Canonical messing about with snaps?

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#273

Post by gexla »

pmontra wrote: post #95
mkurz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. Ubuntu user since the beginning (2004). Switched to Arch half a year ago, will never look back. I don't understand why Ubuntu tries hard to scare away users from what used to be a solid OS with things like Mir, Unity, snap,... Even now the modified Gnome it comes with by default. I don't get it.

I think that they are looking for a way to make money. A snap app store managed by them could be a source of cash. I'm still on 20.04 and maybe I'll switch to Debian or PopOS. I need to find the time to experiment. I'll buy a second SSD and dual boot.

With open source apps though? My guess is the idea of a store is a commonly known UX (App store, Play store.) And the snaps give you a way of installing more updated versions of software than the package repos provide.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#274

Post by philliphaydon »

RScholar wrote: post #172
philliphaydon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to flavours of Ubuntu (Pop/Mint) to Manjaro, to Fedora. I love fedora, it just works. I've had 1 issue so far, NVidia GPU on Dell XPS 15. Had to disable noveau and its rock solid.

Kind of creepy, but you just described, step for step, how I ended up running Fedora's KDE Spin on all my boxes over the past year. I really wanted to like Manjaro, I mean the AUR is incredible and their visual design even uses all my favorite colors, but despite my best efforts it felt alien to me in a way I can't well articulate. Now enter Fedora for the past 4-5 months and I have to say I'm rather impressed. In pa…

I went Fedora because of someones recommendation on HN when complaining about some issues I was having with other distros. But i too feel like my search for a daily driver has ended!

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#275

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

mort96 wrote: post #255
5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jump to Debian. It has always worked towards users' interests, and probably will continue doing that because pretty much all developers are volunteers and are running a democratically driven development process. I never understood why Ubuntu is so popular because it's 99.99% Debian, and only gives you a handful of things on top of that: predictable release schedule (which is a two-edged sword if you think about it),…

Isn't it still unsupported to upgrade from one stable Debian version to another? I mean I know you can hack your way around it, just change the apt repos to point at the new release, run apt update, upgrade and dist-upgrade, and hope that not too much stuff breaks. But the nice thing about Ubuntu, especially for less technical people, is that the system will just prompt you to update when it's time, and the upgrade p…

Er, was it ever unsupported, or just not push-button?

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#276

Post by lolinder »

5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #157
ctoth wrote: post #148

I'm not sure precisely why, but when I first saw ads in Apt(8) I decided I wouldn't be using Ubuntu for any more personal projects. On one hand they obviously need to keep the project alive. On the other hand, putting your own ads on top of something that fundamental to the system just felt ... weird/narsty? Reading state information... Done Calculating upgrade... Done Try Ubuntu Pro beta with a free personal subscri…

Jump to Debian. It has always worked towards users' interests, and probably will continue doing that because pretty much all developers are volunteers and are running a democratically driven development process. I never understood why Ubuntu is so popular because it's 99.99% Debian, and only gives you a handful of things on top of that: predictable release schedule (which is a two-edged sword if you think about it),…

> proprietary drivers out of the box

This is it for me. Ubuntu works out of the box as well as Windows does with any hardware I've chosen. From what I've heard, the same can't be said for most other distros.

I use Linux because I like being able to tweak my experience easily, but I do not enjoy spending time fiddling with drivers. I'd rather use Ubuntu and disable the things I don't like than use something that's more "pure" out of the box but have to tweak a bunch of configurations to get things to work properly.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#277

Post by epage »

gunapologist99 wrote: post #246
harel wrote: post #152

For the last year+ I've been thinking of moving from Ubuntu (after 17 years) and into Manjaro (arch). I even have it running on another older laptop and it's great. However, the fear of losing pace, even for a day because an unforeseen problem or missing something stops me. Ubuntu has always (mostly) just worked for me, and I know Manjaro will too but after so many years change is somewhat hard...

I liked Manjaro and Artix, but eventually the package databases somehow got confused and I couldn't upgrade them anymore without deleting files. However, Manjaro especially looks fantastic, and Artix doesn't come with systemd, which is a win..

My first try at Manjaro, I did an update after install and it wouldn't boot anymore. Haven't looked back since I want Linux that just works.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#278

Post by echelon »

bayindirh wrote: post #260
seiferteric wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually brings up a good question of why can't dpkg/.deb just support having multiple library versions? My understanding is that it is not support, but if it was, then couldn't that obviate the need for snap?

Many people are unaware that "so naming" [0] solves multiple versions of the same library problem. My Debian installation regularly has two or three versions of the same library (e.g. libx264) installed while packages update and start to use newer versions of the same library. [0]: https://tldp.org/HOWTO/Program-Library-HOWTO/shared-librarie...

The point is that some apps should be 100% hermetic and not have package dependencies whatsoever. The browser is a prime example.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#279

Post by sodality2 »

mort96 wrote: post #257
derefr wrote: post #211

Lot of people here with opinions about using Ubuntu as a desktop OS. Seemingly nobody here with opinions about Ubuntu as a server OS. Strange for a bunch of startup people who ship their SaaS backends on Linux servers.

I use Ubuntu Server on all my headless stuff. It's boring, in the best way possible. I install it and set it up, run `apt-get update && apt-get upgrade` occasionally (I should enable unattended upgrades but I haven't), and otherwise don't have to think about it at all until it's time to upgrade to another LTS 2 years later. Those LTS to LTS upgrades are kinda painful, but not unexpectedly so, considering you're catch…

> (I should enable unattended upgrades but I haven't),

I'm not quite sure about that. If you do, at least enable logging/health monitoring. I've had unattended upgrades break services on Debian servers. I typically just keep an eye out for security upgrades and run the commands every saturday at 1 am to avoid interruptions if anything goes wrong.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#280

Post by glandium »

nequo wrote: post #25
severino wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also use Ubuntu a lot, and while I'm disappointed about this Snap thing, I'm still not looking for alternatives. At least until 22.04 I could dodge snaps pretty easily, but now, since Firefox is now a snap package, things went worse, at least for me. I gave it a try and, while the experience was not as bad as I feared, I soon encountered problems with things like trying to use a smartcard reader for signing documen…

Firefox ESR is available in a PPA that is maintained by Mozilla. Even though that's a third party, that's as close to an official package as it gets. I'm just hoping that it will remain available until this snap thing subsides, or until I make the switch to GNU Guix or something. Edit: It seems that the latest stable Firefox is available, too.[1] I thought it was only ESR and that Ubuntu's switch to snap was requeste…

AFAIK, that PPA is not maintained by Mozilla. Source: I work for Mozilla.
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