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Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

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Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#71

Post by themitigating »

tibbar wrote: post #57
2bitencryption wrote: post #44

Can someone explain something - Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? I.e. beating Magnus, Elo rating, etc. I know chess.com did an analysis, which I've read, but I'm hoping someone more impartial could explain it. In the scenario where he did not cheat, is he really on a Bobby Fischer-like ascend…

It's a very impressive rise, but in part because it started later in life than other young GMs. In absolute terms, he's still on par with about a dozen young 2700s who are about the same age. It's just that he caught up really fast.

The velocity is the issue not the skill level.

If I never bowled in my life, started, and two weeks later claimed I was getting 270 or higher on a consistent basis you wouldn't say "well there are pro bowelers his age that get similar scores "

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#72

Post by neaden »

saxonww wrote: post #19
gretch wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a lawyer but I’ve been in lawsuits on all sides. It’s the general recommended practice. The number can only go down, never up, so you ask for all that you can. It does have -some- sense if you think about it: this is a young kid with a whole career ahead of him. Because of this accusation, his career is pretty much over. Since he could have been one of the best (as demonstrated by beating magnus) he would have ma…

His chess career. He most certainly has a wealth of other opportunities, and I tend to think of these chess grandmaster types as very capable of being very good at a lot of other things.

Chess is most of these peoples lives. Hans has talked about how basically all he does is study chess, play chess, and eat take out food. He doesn't really have any non chess basked skills.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#73

Post by woodruffw »

Ekaros wrote: post #53
woodruffw wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The baseline from Alex Jones' cases is significantly higher: Jones built a multibillion dollar company off of slanderous lies about grieving parents and dead children. I don't think anybody in this context is worth close to that much, has had nearly that much public influence, etc.

Chess.com has yearly revenue of 50 to 100 million. So I think actually the 100 million is quite low looking at that number.

Where did you get that number from? I can't find any source online that substantiates it.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#74

Post by laweijfmvo »

2bitencryption wrote: post #44

Can someone explain something - Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? I.e. beating Magnus, Elo rating, etc. I know chess.com did an analysis, which I've read, but I'm hoping someone more impartial could explain it. In the scenario where he did not cheat, is he really on a Bobby Fischer-like ascend…

I‘ve been trying to draw parallels to other sports in this regard. Nobody accused Tiger Woods of cheating (at golf) when he redefined the sport. People DID accuse Lance Armstrong, and they were right (although in that case the whole field was cheating). New England Patriots? Kinda cheated. Michael Phelps has never been accused AFAIK.

As a non-chess player, I can’t help but wonder if this is just an entire sport refusing to accept that someone could come along and achieve this, or if it’s really just too good to be true.

Plus Hans did admit to at least some amount of cheating.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#75

Post by foepys »

treis wrote: post #68
planetsprite wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His rate of improvement, assuming no cheating since his ban in 2020, is a faster ascendance than any other player in history, including Bobby Fischer. So yes, assuming he suddenly quit cheating cold turkey, his performance would indicate he is a once in a generation talent and could easily become the best in the world, according to the Chess.com report.

His performance at the US chess championship with strict anti-cheating measures in place proves beyond a reasonable doubt that he's as good as his rating. This whole "improved too fast" as proof of cheating is nonsense. He might have still cheated to beat Magnus but there's no proof.

As ridiculous as it sounds, did the US chess championship explicitly check to prevent the vibrating buttplug that has been jokingly thrown around as a theory?

It's an honest question. I didn't follow this closely and don't know whether a metal detector could find metal inside a human body.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#76

Post by billforsternz »

2bitencryption wrote: post #44

Can someone explain something - Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? I.e. beating Magnus, Elo rating, etc. I know chess.com did an analysis, which I've read, but I'm hoping someone more impartial could explain it. In the scenario where he did not cheat, is he really on a Bobby Fischer-like ascend…

He has had an impressive but not unprecedented ramp up, from 2400(ish) to 2700 in around 3 years. There are actually other young stars, in particular a trio of Indian prodigies who've had a similar surge at the same time. I recommend the work of Nate Solon, a chess master and data scientist, easy to find on Twitter, he's published some interesting analysis. It's surprising for Magnus to lose a White game at all, especially to someone not in the top ten, but really no more than surprising - these sort of things happen. Can Djokovic lose to the world #100? Absolutely, he can have a bad day. The world #100 (in tennis or chess) is 98% (ish) as good as the world #1. Did Niemann cheat against Magnus? Obviously I don't know but I do think extraordinary claims should require extraordinary evidence and I don't see it in this case.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#77

Post by z7 »

2bitencryption wrote: post #44

Can someone explain something - Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? I.e. beating Magnus, Elo rating, etc. I know chess.com did an analysis, which I've read, but I'm hoping someone more impartial could explain it. In the scenario where he did not cheat, is he really on a Bobby Fischer-like ascend…

I thought the consensus was that Magnus played badly and Hans played adequately but also made clear mistakes himself.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#78

Post by remarkEon »

jstx1 wrote: post #24
inanutshellus wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Excellent username, btw.) Why wouldn't he win? As you mentioned, nothing has been proven, and yet in the "court of public opinion" he's already guilty and is the butt (in the literal sense) of jokes all due to the insinuations and accusations from Mr. Carlsen, the chess tournament hosts, etc. This guy's reputation is in shambles and yet hasn't been formally charged with anything and there's no hard proof anywhere (A…

> nothing has been proven The court cases won't be about whether he cheated. They'll mostly be about whether the people he's suing could legally say the things they've said.

(I am not a lawyer)

Wouldn’t some aspect of the case be about whether the defendants actually knew for a fact if Hans was cheating? In other words, were they saying “Hans cheated in this tournament and we have the proof” or “Hans’ play has been super sketchy he’s cheating”. There seems to me a difference here, both in intent and scope.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#79

Post by faeriechangling »

Vrondi wrote: post #63
faeriechangling wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think him being damaged by being called a cheater is incredibly obvious, it has materially impacted his future earnings directly, and it has also had a significantly impacted his reputation beyond what the prior cheating allegations did. Magnus and Hikaru are two of the biggest chess celebrities on the planet, and Chess.com (According to Hans himself) has the best anti-cheat team in the chess world. Being accused o…

One might even think that his own documented and admitted history of cheating is what has damaged him. Who wants to play against a cheater? Has he suddenly come down with a case of honor? How can he prove that? He has already destroyed his own reputation. Why should anyone want to play him? He is whining because he is reaping what he has sown himself.

I believe his past and admitted history of cheating did damage him, but that does not mean these recent allegations of cheating have not additionally damaged him.

The allegations also weren't "Why - this man has admitted to cheated in the past - therefore we shouldn't trust him in the future". In the case of chess.com, they made specific and explicit allegations of cheating across a number of RECENT games. Magnus accused him specifically of cheating in the Sinquefield cup. The difference between somebody who cheated a few years ago as a teenager only online and seemingly reformed, and somebody who cheated again after claiming not to and cheated OTB as well, is significantly different in many peoples eyes. In a way that materially impacts his future career.

Before the Magnus allegations of recent cheating, nobody was seriously considering banning Hans from tournaments. Now he has already been banned from money tournaments by chess.com. I believe the fact he has faced harm as a result of these novel allegations is so obvious as to be beyond dispute. It is by far the easiest part of Hans legal case to prove. Unflattering allegations against Hans literally ended up in the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal because of the recent novel allegations of Chess.com and Magnus Carlsen.

Past misdeeds do not mean the end of all future legal protections. Just because you have a shady past doesn't mean you can't sue for slander/libel and win, you see shady journalists who lie all the time win slander/libel cases all the time.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#80

Post by nilespotter »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #59
planetsprite wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His rate of improvement, assuming no cheating since his ban in 2020, is a faster ascendance than any other player in history, including Bobby Fischer. So yes, assuming he suddenly quit cheating cold turkey, his performance would indicate he is a once in a generation talent and could easily become the best in the world, according to the Chess.com report.

I'm a huge Hans fan. (F him for cheating, but setting that aside.) His play is objectively insane . Either he's somehow been cheating this whole time via shoefish, or he's the real deal. GothamChess has had excellent coverage of his games. Like seriously, look at this one: https://youtu.be/ainUWFboMLs?t=1490 Hans threw a masterful knockout punch at the end, one which his opponent completely overlooked, and was solely…

I love that this video has over 300k views.
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