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Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

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Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#191

Post by hsbauauvhabzb »

echelon wrote: post #190
thomaslord wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox is a particularly interesting case because it has a bunch of issues that only exist when it's installed via snap. I just recently ripped out the default snap version and installed via the official PPA, and Firefox seems to be running much smoother now. For basically any app I use that's installed via snap, I eventually run into a gamebreaking issue and have to remove the snap version and find a normal .deb to…

Snap makes sense, but it'll take time for the dust to settle. Just like Unity / Wayland. Applications like Firefox, IntelliJ, Chromium, etc. shouldn't be tied to system dependencies managed by apt. They should be entirely monolithic and hermetic. Long term this deb vs snap approach will make sense and be good for Desktop Linux.

I don’t disagree but that won’t change the fact that snap completely broke my Firefox workflow, and doesn’t gracefully allow me to restart Firefox (rather inconsistently have tabs crash unexpectedly).

Snap is immature, and not ready for production deployment. The way Ubuntu/parent company have pushed snap has been damaging to its image.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#193

Post by HideousKojima »

echelon wrote: post #190
thomaslord wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox is a particularly interesting case because it has a bunch of issues that only exist when it's installed via snap. I just recently ripped out the default snap version and installed via the official PPA, and Firefox seems to be running much smoother now. For basically any app I use that's installed via snap, I eventually run into a gamebreaking issue and have to remove the snap version and find a normal .deb to…

Snap makes sense, but it'll take time for the dust to settle. Just like Unity / Wayland. Applications like Firefox, IntelliJ, Chromium, etc. shouldn't be tied to system dependencies managed by apt. They should be entirely monolithic and hermetic. Long term this deb vs snap approach will make sense and be good for Desktop Linux.

If you say so, but I don't see why it should be forced on Ubuntu users by Canonical until then.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#194

Post by Jenk »

compsciphd wrote: post #45
overshard wrote: post #5

I used to use Ubuntu for everything and was very happy in the massive Ubuntu ecosystem with a .deb for everything till I was forced to use Snap a few releases ago for installing even some basic utils I used on a daily basis. I then had Snap constantly hang on installs and just break for no apparent reason and waste my time debugging it. It didn't "just work" anymore. Swapped to Arch and haven't looked back yet, Arch…

I used to defend snap with the idea that it makes sense for some apps, i.e. "firefox" where updating firefox while its running is bad news. Except, snap can't update applications while they are running! i.e. try to do a snap refresh while firefox is running, nothing to update, because its running, quit it wait for all processes to die and then refresh, and it will update and cause you to wait 30-60s while it does it,…

Polite FYI:

When a statement has many examples it is correct to use "e.g.," which is an abbreviation of _exempli gratia_, which in turn is Latin for "for example." For example: There are many emotions a person may feel, e.g., happiness.

When a statement has only one logical conclusion it is correct to use "i.e.," which is the abbreviation of _id est_ which in turn is Latin for "that is." For example: It was the same colour as a clear summer's day sky, i.e., blue.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#195

Post by Shared404 »

hn2017 wrote: post #109
fulafel wrote: post #63

The regular as clockwork bi-yearly releases are one of the best things about Ubuntu. Ubuntu is the default supported Linux laptop/desktop env in so many tech orgs. If you use Ubuntu and want to help ensure it works for your env remember to test the upcoming release alphas / betas eg with USB boot stick and file bugs on Launchpad if you notice something broken. (Same goes for other distros your org may use, eg Debian,…

Not sure why your downvoted. Ubuntu has been fairly reliable for years

Probably was due to this line:

> Snaps mostly work great, and are a great improvement for keepign up to date sw available for people using LTS releases. This and the security improvements brought by the sandboxing greatly overshadow the sometime teething problems of the system.

That being said, I do currently use Ubuntu 20.04 at work (with snap disabled) and it's been pretty great.

E to Add: I don't think snap/flatpak are _inherently_ bad. Snap's implementation however does however cause lots of problems for me. While maybe these are just teething issues, flatpak is right there and works now, with acceptable sandboxing for my usecase.

E2: spelling

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#196

Post by stinkytaco »

tesseract2 wrote: post #189
Kwpolska wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another good alternative could be openSUSE: https://www.opensuse.org/ - also pretty smooth, with user-friendly configuration tools, and no snap nonsense. WSL users might also be interested in using that for their distro instead of Ubuntu.

I used to use opensuse around 2010, and had very pleasant experience with it. Things just worked, and their Yast tool was very handy. I used to joke that opensuse is the Mercedes of linux distro :). I am wondering why it isn't more popular. Is there any sentiment/experience people would like to share about this distro?

It's the second biggest Linux company behind Redhat, so I think it's reasonably popular. It's also been a while since I used it, but I'll also point out that it's developed primarily in Germany, so it's entirely possible it's just not as popular in the English speaking community.

However, the licensing agreement with Microsoft put many people in the open source community off, so I think that's contributed to its decline among hobby users.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#197

Post by hsbauauvhabzb »

Semi related snap rant: I installed Firefox by adding a Mozilla repository into apt. Turns out the repository is nightly builds which have strange functional issues. There was no mention of this on the (rather poor) install guides I found on switching.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#198

Post by Jenk »

overshard wrote: post #5

I used to use Ubuntu for everything and was very happy in the massive Ubuntu ecosystem with a .deb for everything till I was forced to use Snap a few releases ago for installing even some basic utils I used on a daily basis. I then had Snap constantly hang on installs and just break for no apparent reason and waste my time debugging it. It didn't "just work" anymore. Swapped to Arch and haven't looked back yet, Arch…

Arch does have a slight hangup - you can't pin versions of stuff without creating a whole new pkgbuild.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#199

Post by theamk »

echelon wrote: post #190
thomaslord wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox is a particularly interesting case because it has a bunch of issues that only exist when it's installed via snap. I just recently ripped out the default snap version and installed via the official PPA, and Firefox seems to be running much smoother now. For basically any app I use that's installed via snap, I eventually run into a gamebreaking issue and have to remove the snap version and find a normal .deb to…

Snap makes sense, but it'll take time for the dust to settle. Just like Unity / Wayland. Applications like Firefox, IntelliJ, Chromium, etc. shouldn't be tied to system dependencies managed by apt. They should be entirely monolithic and hermetic. Long term this deb vs snap approach will make sense and be good for Desktop Linux.

Is snap enough of improvent over deb to replace it? Sometimes yes.

Is snap enough of improvement of Flakpak to ignore community standard and deal witb all the user hostile craziness like non-removable updater? No way.

I hope it goes the way of the Mir and upstart - replaced with a competitor and silently removed.

Re: Ubuntu 22.10 Kinetic Kudu

#200

Post by chrisallenlane »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #151
bornfreddy wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The packages make sense for the apps that don't change frequently, but browsers don't match this description.

It's the opposite of the way things should be. Package managers should have the most utility for applications that update frequently, because isn't the raison d'etre of a package manager to make updating programs easier? Some distros manage to get it right. I haven't had any trouble using OpenSUSE Tumbleweed's packaged Firefox.

I've discovered a workflow I'm happy with.

I run Debian stable on my workstation, and manage most of my packages with `apt`. As such, everything "just works," and flawlessly.

For the handful of packages that I want to upgrade aggressively, I manage them with Nix[1].

I've been doing this for maybe two or three years, and despite a little extra complexity, it feels like a best-of-both worlds scenario. I get the rock-solid stability of Debian stable, but the one or two packages that need to stay cutting-edge are able to do so.

I also don't have trouble with package conflicts, because the entire point of Nix is to prevent those kinds of problems.

This has been great for me. Do recommend.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_(package_manager)

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