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AI will replace middle management before robots replace hourly workers

chatterhead.bearblog.dev

211–220 of 379 posts

Re: AI will replace middle management before robots replace hourly workers

#211

What does chess have in common with retail middle management? As someone who has managed a retail store and played chess, I can confidently answer: nothing. Remember when Watson beat Ken Jennings at Jeopardy? And then IBM saturated the airwaves with ads about how Watson was going to revolutionize industries like energy and health care? Notice how we don’t see those ads anymore? It’s because winning Jeopardy has nothi…

Watson was a stunt. It's not very hard for someone on HN to figure out how much of Watson was Watson. The crowd still bought it. But as someone who worked on software that handled the last example you gave, I assure, a few well placed if and elses do the trick. Also, humans have tendency to follow any instructions sent to them when it is titled "System" or "Administration". *System Message:* New revised schedule for.…

I don’t know what problem you were solving, but irony is that optimal constraint based scheduling is an NP hard problem, that is usually solved using heuristics that an AI could actually do a very good job at.

…so no, a few if and else statements will not cut it, in any sense compared to a competent manager.

…but plausibly yes, some kind of ML system could replace that part of the job.

(:

Problems are harder than they look; the whole point is that managers exist because those problems are hard, and they exist now because current approaches (a few if statements is obviously irrelevant, but specifically constraint solvers) to solving them a) take too long to run, b) are too difficult to express dynamically changing problems in and c) lack the “human touch” of favouritism that managers use to doll out rewards and punishments by giving good and bad shifts.

…but, quite plausibly, that work could now be done by a model that takes human speech input and translates it into input for a constraint solver, or even implements a novel constraint solver.

There is novel stuff now, that really does make a difference for this kind of specific domain problem.

It won’t get rid of a shop manager, but it’ll probably make their life easier and mean they can drop having an assistant manager.

Re: AI will replace middle management before robots replace hourly workers

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

k. - Human worker.

reminds me of that joke Zizek likes to make about dating. two lovers meet up at ones house for Netflix and chill, she takes out her vibrator and he takes his fleshlight. they put them together to let them do what sexual machines do, so now their obligation is fulfilled and they can enjoy conversation instead.

And by "enjoy conversation instead" you of course mean, "stare at their phones and ignore each other".

Re: AI will replace middle management before robots replace hourly workers

#213

What does chess have in common with retail middle management? As someone who has managed a retail store and played chess, I can confidently answer: nothing. Remember when Watson beat Ken Jennings at Jeopardy? And then IBM saturated the airwaves with ads about how Watson was going to revolutionize industries like energy and health care? Notice how we don’t see those ads anymore? It’s because winning Jeopardy has nothi…

> How’s AI going to do that better than a fellow human?

I think the article argues that AI is more likely to be better than a human at replacing certain management problems, than at doing other classes of labor.

I don't think the article argues that AI is better than humans, just that it's possible/likely to be better at humans at middle management tasks before other tasks.

Unsure if I buy the argument, but it is indeed a cool hypothesis to explore. Cool premise to build upon and think of how the world would look like if it comes true (second half of the article).

Re: AI will replace middle management before robots replace hourly workers

#215
It's already happening.

https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/the-robots-are-c...

https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/mnsc.2020.381...

"As a new general-purpose technology, robots have the potential to radically transform employment and organizations. In contrast to prior studies that predict dramatic employment declines, we find that investments in robotics are associated with increases in total firm employment but decreases in the total number of managers. Similarly, we find that robots are associated with an increase in the span of control for supervisors remaining within the organization."

Re: AI will replace middle management before robots replace hourly workers

#216

What does chess have in common with retail middle management? As someone who has managed a retail store and played chess, I can confidently answer: nothing. Remember when Watson beat Ken Jennings at Jeopardy? And then IBM saturated the airwaves with ads about how Watson was going to revolutionize industries like energy and health care? Notice how we don’t see those ads anymore? It’s because winning Jeopardy has nothi…

Watson was a stunt. It's not very hard for someone on HN to figure out how much of Watson was Watson. The crowd still bought it. But as someone who worked on software that handled the last example you gave, I assure, a few well placed if and elses do the trick. Also, humans have tendency to follow any instructions sent to them when it is titled "System" or "Administration". *System Message:* New revised schedule for.…

I think you need to reverse the "Reply" so it's "Reply to accept".

Anyway the issue with having an AI or just a regular old program doing things like that is that it will insist on following the rules. So you end up with tricky issues where the system WILL NOT revise the schedule 2 days in advance, because workers are required 7 days notice for instance. Or it can not fill a shift, because there are no one left it can legally call upon.

My wife works in a field that has less unemployment than IT, it is literally impossible to hire extra staff, there simply aren't any. These business also have legally mandate opening hours and a union (not a good one, but it's there). If more than one person call in sick, they technically have a problem, especially for evening shifts, where only one person is at work. You end up with situations where you're legally required to call someone to work, because you need to stay open. You just can't call anyone, because they are already at their maximum number of hours for that week (due to a lack of staff), or you the staff that is available aren't legally allowed to work for the next 11 hours, or the notice would be to short, or you're not able to schedule new off time quickly enough.

In the real world people ignore or bend rules to make things work. Computers don't. The sad reality is that we're surrounded by rules and legislation that are constantly in conflict with each other. It's one of my concerns with self driving cars as well, but to a lesser extend. Some roads are just over used, and with no alternatives, to a point where an AI that insist on keeping a safe distance would reveal that our infrastructure is very poorly laid out. It's just that human brains know and understand how to bend rules to make society work.

Re: AI will replace middle management before robots replace hourly workers

#217

What does chess have in common with retail middle management? As someone who has managed a retail store and played chess, I can confidently answer: nothing. Remember when Watson beat Ken Jennings at Jeopardy? And then IBM saturated the airwaves with ads about how Watson was going to revolutionize industries like energy and health care? Notice how we don’t see those ads anymore? It’s because winning Jeopardy has nothi…

"How's AI going to do that better than a fellow human?"

Not better but cheaper.

"Better" is just marketing.

Re: AI will replace middle management before robots replace hourly workers

#218

It's not a great article, but the main line of objection in comments here seems to be "This won't happen, because AI won't do the job well and certainly not better than humans." Sadly, we already know that that's not a reason for things not happening. For example, robot staffed called centres are worse in almost every way than human staffed ones. And yet they are widely deployed in certain use cases, e.g. utility com…

Call centers are a special case. Pure cost, and actually helping customers often results in either extra cost (returns and replacements) or loss of revenue (credits, cancellations).

Do you have ten other examples (besides payroll, billing, and computer and communication service delivery)?

Re: AI will replace middle management before robots replace hourly workers

#219
I worked for a large grocery store chain between 2004 and 2010, there the AI had already taken over. Though we didn't call it an AI, just 'the system'.

The system was able to procure goods with stunning accuracy. Sometimes it even surprised us. For example: we'd receive a much higher number of BBQ meat than typical, only to realise it was going to be amazing weather the coming days.

The system was also making schedules for the re-stocking team with the same accuracy. It knew what it ordered, the exact time the truck was due to arrive, at which time the personnel was available (not at school, for example), etc. The system told us when to show up, and when we had to be finished.

The system was even able to pinpoint cashiers that were stealing money from the register, by correlating cash count of the individual registers to the schedule (which the AI also created). It would then 'isolate' the suspected employee to a single register and order a cash count (which was done by hand) at the end of the day.

Basically the only reason why there still was a manager was for responsibility and babysitting (most employees were teens that did dumb stuff). And the occasional Karen who wanted to talk to a manager.

I remember being being thoroughly impressed with the efficiency of the software back then. In some ways it must have influenced my career path (I now work in automating businesses). I left in 2010, I can only imagine how much more advanced this system has become since.

Re: AI will replace middle management before robots replace hourly workers

#220
This article doesn't seem to be grounded in reality.

I see self-checkouts, electronic toll collection, vending machines, automation of assembly lines, robots doing order picking in warehouses, self-driving trains in airports and many others replacing hourly workers today.

However, I am not aware of any AI-system replacing a middle manager.

I know it is popular to hate on middle-managers. But good middle manager culture is probably one of the best predictors of company performance.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danpontefract/2019/04/24/it-tur...

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