Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub • Hacker News Board

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#71

Post by MartinCron » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 12:40 AM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #62

MartinCron wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think the ASP.NET MVC can be classified as a black sheep. Neither are things like Linq or Entity Framework. Microsoft is still doing a lot of the interesting stuff in-house.

MVC was developed skunk works style, as was Linq. And MS has only begun embracing MVC anywhere near fully lately. Meanwhile, Linq has been effectively abandoned in preference to the bloated entity framework. If Microsoft had their heads screwed on straight MVC would be the default ASP.NET web-site project type in Visual Studio and Linq would have gotten the love it deserved, even if it competed with EF. I fear that w…

Note: I never used linq-to-sql, but in my experience EF (especially with the code-first stuff) is a decent, lightweight, and highly usable.

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#72

Post by malkia » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 12:41 AM UTC

redstripe wrote: post #27

When I went looking for a git win32 binaries a while ago the attitude was basically "lolz get a mac/linux box". Which is why I use hg instead of git. It's great to see an open source community, that isn't engulfed in the sanfrancisco linux/mac mono culture bubble, reaching out to Win developers for the benfit of everyone.

I use cygwin's git and it's fine.

From the cmd.exe prompt, some of them are still working, as long as the cygwin bin folder is in the PATH variable, and the executables end with .exe, and are not cygwin symlinks (the file would be very small and contain something like !) - then they won't execute, but you can still execute them from cmd.exe, like this:

sh -c "gitk --all"

Hopefully git is still normal executable (gcc is not, for that: sh -c "gcc --help"

C:> gcc --help

Access is denied.

C:> sh -c "gcc --help"

... Help displayed

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#73

Post by jongalloway2 » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 12:42 AM UTC

hkarthik wrote: post #67

kkowalczyk wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now I have to ask: who are the bad guys in C# world?

If the good guys are Haack, Hanselman, and Conery, then the bad guys are nearly everyone else.

I'm straight up evil.

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#74

Post by malkia » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 12:43 AM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #70

eropple wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. It's gotten better, but the tooling is awkward, the commonly used UI (TortoiseGit) is wonky, and not being a "native citizen" on the OS isn't acceptable--MSYS is a mess to have around on a Windows machine and even the "minimal subset" that you can install with Git is more than I consider acceptable. (I realize that entirely too much of Git is UNIX-based plumbing, but that's their problem.) I gave Git anothe…

git GUIs on windows are all pretty weak, but the git command line and git bash work perfectly well. my experience with git GUIs in general (regardless of the OS) is that you should just give up and use the CLI.

cygwin's gitk works just fine. (or sh -c "git gui")

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#75

Post by visoft » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 12:43 AM UTC

bradwestness wrote: post #64

I really hope this leads to better Git tools for Windows developers. I've attempted to host several C# projects on GitHub in the past, but I always end up giving up and using either CodePlex or BitBucket because it's so much easier to get up and running with HG and SVN. Edit: Git tools, not GitHub tools.

There's already a wonderful tool that you can use... Git Bash :)

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#76

Post by drawkbox » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 12:45 AM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #70

eropple wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. It's gotten better, but the tooling is awkward, the commonly used UI (TortoiseGit) is wonky, and not being a "native citizen" on the OS isn't acceptable--MSYS is a mess to have around on a Windows machine and even the "minimal subset" that you can install with Git is more than I consider acceptable. (I realize that entirely too much of Git is UNIX-based plumbing, but that's their problem.) I gave Git anothe…

git GUIs on windows are all pretty weak, but the git command line and git bash work perfectly well. my experience with git GUIs in general (regardless of the OS) is that you should just give up and use the CLI.

After using Tower on Mac you may change your mind. If there was a client like that on Windows it would win. Currently hg integrates cleanly and more of a svn replacement since it is more open. Note: I code mainly on osx but some .net only on windows.

I always thought it was cool that Mercurial is written in Python, part of that cross platform magic.

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#77

Post by jongalloway2 » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 12:47 AM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #62

MartinCron wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think the ASP.NET MVC can be classified as a black sheep. Neither are things like Linq or Entity Framework. Microsoft is still doing a lot of the interesting stuff in-house.

MVC was developed skunk works style, as was Linq. And MS has only begun embracing MVC anywhere near fully lately. Meanwhile, Linq has been effectively abandoned in preference to the bloated entity framework. If Microsoft had their heads screwed on straight MVC would be the default ASP.NET web-site project type in Visual Studio and Linq would have gotten the love it deserved, even if it competed with EF. I fear that w…

MVC has to be one of the most non-skunkworks projects in Microsoft history. Scott Guthrie (senior management) was involved from the very beginning, and there were frequent preview and beta releases through the entire development cycle. Couldn't have been more open, both inside and outside of Microsoft. Maybe there's another meaning of skunkworks I'm not aware of?

Also, FWIW, a lot of Microsoft's biggest public facing sites run on ASP.NET MVC now, so even if you assumed a lot of stupidity or evilness, there's a lot of inertia behind ASP.NET MVC.

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#78

Post by bad_user » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 12:48 AM UTC

throwmeaway2 wrote: post #48

phatboyslim wrote: post #3

For anyone curious about any background on Phil Haack. Here are his notable accomplishments. - MS Lead on ASP.net MVC framework vers. 1 through 3 (current) - Lead on the NuGet package manager framework for Visual Studio - This Developer's Life Podcast with Scott Hanselman

Github is my social network. I wake up into it, i follow it, push to it during the day, and I survey it before sleep. I love Github (in fact i'm inlove with Github). I depend on Github. I don't do facebook, g+ or twitter for socializing. I used to admire Haack aswell. He's a great guy. However I fell out of love with .net. I am a polyglot programmer, with strong background in .net. To understand these Haack's "accomp…

I'm pretty sure that .NET developers won't take away from its awesomeness. Quite the contrary, I think that if more .NET developers are opening up to how things work outside of their environment, we'll see a lot more openness and collaboration coming from .NET devs.

And then maybe this whole us versus them thing will stop.

    There is nothing genious about MVC3

As a Python developer, I don't think there's anything genius about Ruby on Rails either. It's just a bunch of borrowed features that were added with good taste + marketing + community enhancements. Overall the whole package is great, but it does stand on the shoulders of giants nonetheless. Borrowing stuff is not a sin - if anything I blame Microsoft for the often displayed NIH syndrome.

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#79

Post by mythz » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 12:58 AM UTC

MartinCron wrote: post #71

InclinedPlane wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MVC was developed skunk works style, as was Linq. And MS has only begun embracing MVC anywhere near fully lately. Meanwhile, Linq has been effectively abandoned in preference to the bloated entity framework. If Microsoft had their heads screwed on straight MVC would be the default ASP.NET web-site project type in Visual Studio and Linq would have gotten the love it deserved, even if it competed with EF. I fear that w…

Note: I never used linq-to-sql, but in my experience EF (especially with the code-first stuff) is a decent, lightweight, and highly usable.

lightweight? seriously?

http://servicestack.net/benchmarks/

Re: Phil Haack quit Microsoft for GitHub

#80

Post by daviding » Thu, Dec 08, 2011, 1:02 AM UTC

Phil is smart, and MVC3 helped .NET enormously but I think people are getting carried away that the guy is some sort of paid ambassador for Microsoft and .NET at Github. I imagine that he'll do whatever it takes to make Github better with the skill-set and experience he has, but that doesn't mean he has to have some mandate from Microsoft on what to change. Maybe he's just a good engineer and Github hires those? Let's give it a few months at least.

Perhaps he'll work on a whole bunch of non-Microsoft stacks now? Getting Open Source within Microsoft and the Microsoft communities is probably more an issue with culture rather than tooling - a hire won't 'fix' that. It would take many counter-culture things (and years) to change I think. Phil working at Github rather than wanting to work at Microsoft is the interesting aspect, and I can't see why that would be 'good' for Microsoft.

Congrats to Phil and Github!