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Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

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Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#81

Post by theironhammer »

wcoenen wrote: post #72
nightski wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically screw over your average mid to low income person that has less flexibility. This is not how we convince people to be sustainable.

Would a person with low income prefer A) having an option to lower the electricity bill or B) pay more because there is no such option, and more expensive power needs to be sourced from peaking power plants? There are already day-ahead electricity markets with prices that vary throughout the day. You _already_ pay a premium over those variable prices, for the convenience of a fixed rate. All I'm saying is that it wou…

EVs are going to screw low income people via Sky High Electricity prices.

Electricity will become an expensive commodity.

Look at prices in the UK and Europe. It's already starting to happen (but not because of EVs). Just wait till EVs become pervasive. All that demand for electricity.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#82

Post by theironhammer »

ButchC wrote: post #22
kybernetyk wrote: post #18

EVs as we know them are a dead end. It’s one of those wonderful solutions that look really good until you take a deeper look.

That is a silly statement, as absurd as saying electricity itself is a dead end. The fact of the matter is EVs and electrified vehicles in general are the best answer we've got for the future of consumer mobility. Nothing else really competes long term.

Well for me who hasn't owned a car for 25 years I'm going to be quite annoyed that I have to pay higher electricity prices because of EVs. It's bad enough that I have to breath in their exhaust etc.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#83

Post by twblalock »

nightski wrote: post #31
wcoenen wrote: post #7

"time of use" tariffs will be important to keep things balanced. People who want to minimize their power bill should have the option to pick the "time of use" pricing and shift some of their consumption off-peak. Others can choose to pay more for the convenience of not having to worry about all that stuff. How much more, that can be determined by market forces.

So basically screw over your average mid to low income person that has less flexibility. This is not how we convince people to be sustainable.

A lot of things about the switch to EVs will screw over low-income people, at least for a while.

The price floor for used EVs is going to be higher than the price floor for used gas cars. You won't be able to buy a $1000 hoopty EV with 200k miles on it because it will need several thousand dollars in replacement batteries to be drivable. Therefore the price floor will be the cost of replacement batteries.

At the same time, banning new gas car sales will drive up the value of older gas cars as people scramble to hoard them, resulting in price increases for used gas cars which will also hurt low-income people.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#84

Post by _skel »

theironhammer wrote: post #81
wcoenen wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would a person with low income prefer A) having an option to lower the electricity bill or B) pay more because there is no such option, and more expensive power needs to be sourced from peaking power plants? There are already day-ahead electricity markets with prices that vary throughout the day. You _already_ pay a premium over those variable prices, for the convenience of a fixed rate. All I'm saying is that it wou…

EVs are going to screw low income people via Sky High Electricity prices. Electricity will become an expensive commodity. Look at prices in the UK and Europe. It's already starting to happen (but not because of EVs). Just wait till EVs become pervasive. All that demand for electricity.

What is happening in the UK and Europe right now is a preview of a future where fossil fuel supply is rapidly curtailed before alternatives are ready.

It's a cautionary tale about moving too fast in the right direction.

It's easy to say "stop oil now" and things like that, but the reality is that there is only so much suffering the population will take before they turn to right-wing populist politicians who promise to roll back the progress that has been made, or their governments bankrupt themselves by subsidizing the pain away. These changes need to be made gradually.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#85

Post by dzhiurgis »

twblalock wrote: post #76
wcoenen wrote: post #7

"time of use" tariffs will be important to keep things balanced. People who want to minimize their power bill should have the option to pick the "time of use" pricing and shift some of their consumption off-peak. Others can choose to pay more for the convenience of not having to worry about all that stuff. How much more, that can be determined by market forces.

PG&E in California already offers multiple time-of-use pricing options, including one just for EVs. They still can't keep the lights on during a heat wave because people run their air conditioners and are willing to pay the peak rates to do so. Imagine the same level of demand, but with mass EV adoption on top of it, as well as the state planning to ban gas appliances and shift all the load for cooking and heating on…

> but the only real solution

how about $1000 (10kwh @ EV prices) battery or so at every household?

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#86

Post by dzhiurgis »

giantg2 wrote: post #23
pgt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one way to get 'em back in the office! :)

Except if they were really serious they would have just eliminated the need to spend that energy driving into the office by allowing WFH.

woooosh

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#87

Post by twblalock »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #85
twblalock wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PG&E in California already offers multiple time-of-use pricing options, including one just for EVs. They still can't keep the lights on during a heat wave because people run their air conditioners and are willing to pay the peak rates to do so. Imagine the same level of demand, but with mass EV adoption on top of it, as well as the state planning to ban gas appliances and shift all the load for cooking and heating on…

> but the only real solution how about $1000 (10kwh @ EV prices) battery or so at every household?

That's pretty similar to this idea, which I already mentioned:

> People talk about EVs putting power back into the grid. Frankly I think that's a pipe dream in the near future. Our power companies are barely competent enough to run the grid without causing forest fires -- they aren't going to be capable of implementing that at the kind of scale that would make a difference anytime soon.

It's not realistic to expect a broken utility like PG&E to pull that off anytime soon. Most utilities in the United States are as bad as, or worse than, PG&E.

Another aspect of this, which I am going through myself with my own EV charger install at my new house, is that many homes need retrofitting to be able to charge an EV or install one of those batteries. I need my electrical panel replaced.

Every other house in my neighborhood was built at the same time by the same builder and is going to need a new panel too, if they haven't done it already -- and we aren't talking about old houses, these were built in the 1960s. For many homes, a charger or a battery will require $4k-6k of additional upgrades.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#88

Post by twblalock »

biomcgary wrote: post #65
wizofaus wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And further increase traffic problems and the continued blight of cities designed for cars? I can't see anything that encourages people to start driving to work as a good thing sorry.

Most of the forms of travel that are energy and space efficient are typically not time efficient due to inherent tradeoffs. Nothing saves time, space, and energy simultaneously like not commuting in the first place. To butcher an old phrase, "Think globally, live locally". Universal-ish WFH dramatically undercuts the need for both energy and infrastructure (which also takes energy) and will allow us to scale back bot…

Universal WFH put more stress on the power grid in California during the lockdowns than was normally the case, because everyone was running their heat and AC more often than normal. The result was rolling blackouts.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#89

Post by twblalock »

ethagknight wrote: post #66

I am so tired of misinformation like this. I know they use the "may" get-out-of-jail-free card in the title, but no, nighttime EV charging will not overburden the grid by 2035, as the article purports, because "the grid" (?) will look dramatically different in 13 years. Plus, networked software solutions are already baked into EVs for time of day charging; as such, its a solved problem unworthy of a headline. The add…

> "the grid" (?) will look dramatically different in 13 years.

I don't think so. It takes forever for anything to get built in this country. I have zero confidence the grid will improve fast enough to make mass EV adoption practical in many parts of the US. During the intervening period we will see higher energy bills, rolling blackouts, and rationing.

I mean, if our governments and utility companies were good at building this sort of thing, then why are the power grids in such a poor state today?

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#90

Post by TheLoafOfBread »

timbit42 wrote: post #64
TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BEV is limited by availability of raw materials. Copper, Lithium. It is actually predicted that there will be shortage of batteries for following decade, thanks to lack of available lithium and subsequent processing capacities and shortage of copper thanks to fact that we already maxed out output of current copper mines. So there is no reason for BEV to be cheaper, more less it will keep being expensive or will get e…

If there is a shortage of raw materials, companies will work to get them to fulfill the demand.

There is literally not enough copper on Earth to get BEV going.
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