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Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

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Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#51

Post by kieranmaine »

ortusdux wrote: post #41
megaman821 wrote: post #9

The solution to this is going to be have customers enroll in smart charging. Keep your car connected to the smart charger when not in use and during times of excess power charge the car for a few cents per kw.

I got the new Pixel phone, and this morning I woke up to 20% battery even though it was plugged in all night. It turns out that it ships with a smart charging feature that checks you morning alarm time and waits till a few hours before to initiate charging. It is a cool feature designed to increase the lifespan of your battery, but I can't make use of it. My alarm is a fail-safe and I almost always wake up an hour or…

When I worked at Kaluza our smart charging solution allowed you to set a minimum % that your EV would always charge to, prior to any smart charging taking place. So as soon as you plugged in it would charge to the minimum value you set.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#52

Post by wizofaus »

Symbiote wrote: post #36
twblalock wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That already happens. PG&E charges differently at peak times in California, for example. People just pay for it anyway because they can’t plan their daily lives around the power company’s preferred times.

Cheaper electricity at night has been around for decades in some European countries. My parents would regularly set the dishwasher to run at ~5am, and sometimes the washing machine. In the 1990s this used a timer plug. Nowadays these appliances have built-in delay-start functions.

I use delay-start to do the exact opposite - only run things in the middle of the day when the solar panels are generating the most power. Though it's less ideal for the washing machine as you need somewhere to hang the clothes overnight so you can dry them the next day (unless it's peak summer where there's enough daylight/warmth to dry clothes even if you don't hang them out until 4pm or so).

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#53

Post by akira2501 »

megaman821 wrote: post #24
akira2501 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the solution to "the solution" is to allow the government to control more of the market? Who will enforce this? What will the penalties be? Or, do we just raise power prices for everyone and then give them a break if they allow a third party device to restrict their power usage? Seems like a great way to subsidize "the solution" on the backs of people who can't afford a new EV of their own. Also.. when are there…

The grid does and will increasingly curtail renewables. If they had a demand queue of customer cars to send that power to, they do that instead of curtailing it. This is not a penalty situation, it is an enticement. Smart charge rates of 4 cents instead of 20 cents a kw/h. People will voluntarily do this to save themselves money.

> The grid does and will increasingly curtail renewables. If they had a demand queue of customer cars to send that power to, they do that instead of curtailing it.

And you're going to have those renewables available at night, when this charging is expected to take place and be straining the grid?

> This is not a penalty situation, it is an enticement. Smart charge rates of 4 cents instead of 20 cents a kw/h. People will voluntarily do this to save themselves money.

So where does that 16c/kWh come from? Subsidies? From taxes? So again, everyone has to pay to benefit a small group of consumers who can afford the product in the first place?

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#54

Post by timbit42 »

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #44
kybernetyk wrote: post #18

EVs as we know them are a dead end. It’s one of those wonderful solutions that look really good until you take a deeper look.

I agree. BEVs are more expensive than ICE, does not have greater range than ICE, are charging much slowly than ICE, I don't need any dumb application to get fuel into an ICE and with surging electricity prices does not even make economical sense to own BEV.

BEVs are currently more expensive than ICE but BEVs will be less expensive in less than 10 years as the technology continue to improve. ICE technology doesn't have much room left to improve after 100 years so it's impressive that BEVs will surpass ICE so quickly.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#55

Post by timbit42 »

ButchC wrote: post #45
01100011 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be daft. They certainly have their problems, but calling them a dead end is hyperbole. Sure, there are grid issues. There are resource issues(Li, Ni, Co, Al, Cu, rare earths) with both temporary and long-term shortages combined with geopolitical issues. But overall EVs are more efficient and will win in the long run. Should we be more focused on hybrids right now? Yes. But, in the long run, electric wins(along…

Hybrids don't really need anymore focus than they have had for multiple decades now. It's a fully mature technology that isn't going to advance much in performance, efficiency, or cost no mater how much attention it gets. If it fits your needs great, buy one, if not but whatever does.

Plug-in hybrids have a benefit over BEVs in that they require fewer batteries. You can build 10 PHEVs with the batteries in one BEV. If Lithium production doesn't ramp up quickly enough, PHEVs should get more focus.

Additionally, PHEVs have unlimited range like ICE while using less fuel so they are good for people who frequently need more range than a BEV can provide.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#57

Post by ortusdux »

kieranmaine wrote: post #51
ortusdux wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got the new Pixel phone, and this morning I woke up to 20% battery even though it was plugged in all night. It turns out that it ships with a smart charging feature that checks you morning alarm time and waits till a few hours before to initiate charging. It is a cool feature designed to increase the lifespan of your battery, but I can't make use of it. My alarm is a fail-safe and I almost always wake up an hour or…

When I worked at Kaluza our smart charging solution allowed you to set a minimum % that your EV would always charge to, prior to any smart charging taking place. So as soon as you plugged in it would charge to the minimum value you set.

That was the first thing I checked when I investigated this feature on my phone. Annoyingly it is an "AI driven smart feature" that is not adjustable. I would love it if it charged to 75% right away and then waited till the morning to finish.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#58

Post by megaman821 »

akira2501 wrote: post #53
megaman821 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grid does and will increasingly curtail renewables. If they had a demand queue of customer cars to send that power to, they do that instead of curtailing it. This is not a penalty situation, it is an enticement. Smart charge rates of 4 cents instead of 20 cents a kw/h. People will voluntarily do this to save themselves money.

> The grid does and will increasingly curtail renewables. If they had a demand queue of customer cars to send that power to, they do that instead of curtailing it. And you're going to have those renewables available at night, when this charging is expected to take place and be straining the grid? > This is not a penalty situation, it is an enticement. Smart charge rates of 4 cents instead of 20 cents a kw/h. People w…

Wind power is available at night.

I think you are misunderstanding curtailments. It's when renewables are producing more power than what is needed and they are shut off or throttled. For the power producers getting 4 cents is better than getting 0 cents. Everyone involved in the transaction is better off. Customers get cheap power to charge their cars, and power producers get to sell energy that they otherwise couldn't. No one is subsidizing anything, the system is just more efficient.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#59

Post by lupire »

nightski wrote: post #31
wcoenen wrote: post #7

"time of use" tariffs will be important to keep things balanced. People who want to minimize their power bill should have the option to pick the "time of use" pricing and shift some of their consumption off-peak. Others can choose to pay more for the convenience of not having to worry about all that stuff. How much more, that can be determined by market forces.

So basically screw over your average mid to low income person that has less flexibility. This is not how we convince people to be sustainable.

What are you talking about? "Low to mid income" people also sleep at some time during the night or day.

Re: Nighttime charging of EVs may overburden the grid

#60

Post by TheLoafOfBread »

timbit42 wrote: post #54
TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. BEVs are more expensive than ICE, does not have greater range than ICE, are charging much slowly than ICE, I don't need any dumb application to get fuel into an ICE and with surging electricity prices does not even make economical sense to own BEV.

BEVs are currently more expensive than ICE but BEVs will be less expensive in less than 10 years as the technology continue to improve. ICE technology doesn't have much room left to improve after 100 years so it's impressive that BEVs will surpass ICE so quickly.

BEV is limited by availability of raw materials. Copper, Lithium. It is actually predicted that there will be shortage of batteries for following decade, thanks to lack of available lithium and subsequent processing capacities and shortage of copper thanks to fact that we already maxed out output of current copper mines.

So there is no reason for BEV to be cheaper, more less it will keep being expensive or will get even more expensive than it is today.

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