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I am endlessly fascinated with content tagging systems

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Re: I am endlessly fascinated with content tagging systems

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait so, this tag you didn't like didn't even stop you from finding the fic? It didn't clog up your search at all because it wasn't even in your search when you found the fic you were looking for? What's the problem exactly? You're approaching this with a library lens but it's not a library! It was never even intended to be a library! Additionally, it doesn't show up when you're searching for regeneration or limbs be…

And that's a problem, isn't it? I shouldn't have to be immersed in a culture to use the system. You've traded usability and user experience for ... a cultural in-joke. "Hi, this is AO3, and our tags aren't anything like anyone else's tags, but we're still gonna call them tags" is a problem . It's like if I made a search bar and it returned random results. It says search, but culturally, we give you random results. Th…

But it's not a problem because it doesn't affect your ability to search. One-off tags do not enter the tag search results. I'm super confused why this isn't obvious and intuitive to you..

Re: I am endlessly fascinated with content tagging systems

#252
post #23

I’ve written a tagging system from scratch for an existing system and it was one of the most interesting things I’ve worked out. I had total control over how it was implemented and I think I came up with a really nice, minimalist, scalable way to tag things, and to search them.

If you share a brief overview of it, you might receive some good critique of it here (surfacing potential pitfalls others have run into with similar systems). Besides, it might be helpful to others.

Re: I am endlessly fascinated with content tagging systems

#253

Anyone have a suggestion for a tagging filesystem that is maintained? Or if not a filesystem, something that at least works? I still feel like this is the best way to organize personal photos and media, and while https://www.tagsistant.net/ is pretty good it hasn't been updated in 6 years and is fairly buggy.

Edit: ok, wow I didn't even check the link before writing my suggestion but it's kinda freaky how similar they are. Even used a scifi movie as the example. I have a horrible idea that I haven't actually tried out, and I don't know how many filesystems it would work on anyway, but hard links... Create a directory that holds your files. Organise them however you like - some arbitrary subdirectory structure using dates,…

> The many problems […]

…, hard-links are incompatible with programs that attempt "atomic" file saves instead of rewriting a file in-place, …

Re: I am endlessly fascinated with content tagging systems

#254
post #63

Anyone have a suggestion for a tagging filesystem that is maintained? Or if not a filesystem, something that at least works? I still feel like this is the best way to organize personal photos and media, and while https://www.tagsistant.net/ is pretty good it hasn't been updated in 6 years and is fairly buggy.

unix has tags, they are known as hardlinks.

You can misuse them as such (I've done it myself, albeit on Windows), but they're not really made-to-measure for that use case. E.g. deleting files that have been "tagged" that way becomes more cumbersome (because to the OS all hardlinks are created equal, so deleting the "primary" file doesn't automatically delete the tags, too), it's incompatible with any program that uses "atomic" files saves instead of modifying files in-place, the UI for viewing and editing "tags" is not really there, …

Re: I am endlessly fascinated with content tagging systems

#255
post #168

I'm surprised I haven't seen more discussion of how tags are an entry point into plain-old data architecture. It should be obvious that by the time you're using tags for queries like "start-date: BEFORE 2022-03-01", you've created an inner-platform where you're building a plain-old relational database on top of your tags. Stop what you're doing and elevate "start date" out of tag-land and into a more structured repre…

Relatedly, comments fields are the bane of data compliance exercises. You think you’ve caught everywhere a customer’s information might be stored, and then at the last minute you find out support have been putting phone numbers in the comments field because they had nowhere else to put it.

Re: I am endlessly fascinated with content tagging systems

#256

I've been wanting to make a datalog tagging system for a few things for a while now but don't have the energy to actually do it. Essentially the idea is to encode relationships allowing for very specific queries like: "show me pictures of a person wearing a green hat looking at another person" which is not something most tagging systems could reasonably do. Breaking that down, that'd be something like: wearing(person…

So you might be interested to know that medical information is described in the way that you propose. Snowmed CT [0] uses a standardized set of "relationships" between "concepts"

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNOMED_CT?wprov=sfla1

Re: I am endlessly fascinated with content tagging systems

#257
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right, but it was never meant to specialize in user-directed filtering and discovery We agree: > Instagram's ontology is designed to not make this possible, because everything about it is meant to facilitate tube-feeding So as the user-directed ontology component of the IG ecosystem, it's trash, and I will die mad about it. > every social context that gets 'cool' eventually gets LCDed into mediocrity (even HN) I wa…

We agree on the intended use of the app being more about passive consumption of a feed of interesting content, not active, thorough exploration of particular topics. I'm not sure why you think the whole hashtag system was trash because of this one aspect. Most of the evidence I see is contrary to your statements. To reiterate, the strength of the tagging system is the relationship between the tags you interact with,…

> active, thorough exploration of particular topics

> discovery to the level you are describing

It is not a thorough or sophisticated search-engine-type task to "use a celebrity's name as a tag to look at pictures of a celebrity".

I'm whinging about this because I enjoy Instagram for (yes, largely passive) consumption of the kinds of things people post on Instagram, and I think we should be honest about the brave new world we're living in. Part of that means owning up to how the sophisticated engagement-driving media have made certain aspects of interacting with each other's stuff worse, not better.

> Also, individual tags are not exclusively literal descriptors for their content. They may be, or they may be used like: 'people who like #jenniferlawrence will also like #...'

This contradicts the original

> All that to say there was a lot to their system and it worked because users became aware that they were rewarded for using the most relevant tags. Using irrelevant tags was punished.

unless we are using a definition of "relevant" entirely gleaned from a tube-feeding targeted-advertising mindset, where my intent and desire at any given time is immaterial, the actual content of any particular post is immaterial, and queries can only be made via the general profile of my eyeballs' interaction patterns.

(This works really well for paid ads! It really really does, for everyone involved! The Instagram Etsy and Amazon ads I see are extremely good at showing me niche-ass things I want to buy, far better than the content recommended to me on Etsy and Amazon.)

Tags are used as vehicles for content promotion, and the race to the bottom has rendered them so useless that they're not even good for that (at one time they were valuable to catch people browsing tags, but who's going to browse tags when they're this incoherent) so it's not surprising the app has deemphasized them. I think that product choice is pretty strong evidence for my take that they weren't working well, tbh.

On TikTok, the even-more-cursed Instagram Of (Ten Minutes In) The Future, accurate tags come off as cringey and desperate, and are used either as blatantly ironic jokes (the sponsored ones, especially) or Skinner-pigeon dancing-to-attract-the-algorithm (lookin' at you, #fyp). You can see why: if people come to associate tagging with thirsty self-promoting behavior, that's not a good look on your #aesthetic videos. In many contexts, evidence of the social media hustle you're involved in is disqualifying; it's easier to feign naivete, "oh damn this blew up", if your effortful video editing was sent down to people's tubes without your particular direction.

None of this was inevitable, because deciding to rank by engagement bucketed by "users who have a general profile of liking X" instead of "users who are looking at the X tag" is not an inevitable choice, even if the knock-on effects of the incentives it creates are inevitable after that choice.

Re: I am endlessly fascinated with content tagging systems

#258
post #242
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, posts that contain both #jenniferlawrence and #hoodedeyes would be what you are looking for I mean, not to overwork it, but in this example, this isn't accurate: I just want pictures of Jennifer Lawrence, not the much smaller slice of content where the poster had her particular eye shape in mind. Also, I don't want to only "end up seeing" pictures of Jennifer Lawrence in my main feed, I want to be able…

> And if you're wondering if this was discovered and subsequently chased out to #gothgothgoth, You Have Understood The Problem Excellently put. To me, it seems that the problem is that tagging is adversarial in any system where spamming can be rewarded.

Yeah – I'm not even sure we can call it adversarial where there seems to be no signal for relevancy. I'm sure there are "good" reasons for not having one (where by "good" I mean "profitable") but oof it sucks (esp. relative to the much simpler Web2.0 organization of e.g. Reddit)

Re: I am endlessly fascinated with content tagging systems

#259
post #229
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right, but it was never meant to specialize in user-directed filtering and discovery We agree: > Instagram's ontology is designed to not make this possible, because everything about it is meant to facilitate tube-feeding So as the user-directed ontology component of the IG ecosystem, it's trash, and I will die mad about it. > every social context that gets 'cool' eventually gets LCDed into mediocrity (even HN) I wa…

I just want to say that your comments made me laugh super hard, but truly get to the heart of why a blunt engagement metric is a trash metric. (I also study gatekeeping and intermediaries, so it’s interesting from that angle also.)

Some day some master's student is going to write a thesis on the history of the #witchcraft tag on Tumblr and how it functioned as a social space and I only hope my username does not appear. :D

Re: I am endlessly fascinated with content tagging systems

#260
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess if you're really focused on it. I built a content tagging system for an old employer that would attempt to guess context based on keywords and associations but give the writer of the content the final say in what's actually being tagged. Sure, I could have spent a thousand hours refining it, but the improvement would have been marginal and it still would need human interaction.

Was it used for content related to that particular business? I think as long as you have relatively limited variety, you can make something that works well enough.

The content was a publisher. Writers would submit articles, the system would automatically tag them, and the system was good enough that usually the writer or editor would weed out a false positive or two, which is about the same result as all these machine learning use cases with thousands of hours of dev time.

IIRC, terms were weighted, so that some of them needed to have more instances in the articles than others in order to be included in the final tag results.

Locations were one-offs, but specific topical items required more mentions because of false positives. And then there were things we called branch-offs. Branch-off tags occurred when a topic was mentioned enough to be a tag but there's another name that some segment of the population would know it by.

For example, the fish known as the white crappie are known in Louisiana as sac-au-lait, but people would also spell the word sacalait or sac-a-lait. So when we would get an article from an author in the Carolinas, they have no familiarity with a term that is the dominant one in Louisiana, but the software would add the tag anyway, which also exposed it to our site search.

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