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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I haven't seen many good arguments that WFH produces superior work outcomes. https://www.apollotechnical.com/working-from-home-productivi... https://resources.owllabs.com/hubfs/SORW/SORW_2021/owl-labs_... > Several studies over the past few months show productivity while working remotely from home is better than working in an office setting. On average, those who work from home spend 10 minutes less a d…

I'm not going to comment on the entire Apollo Technical source, but I think some of their claims are misleading. For instance, they say this: > A study by Standford of 16,000 workers over 9 months found that working from home increase productivity by 13%. They link to the study, but it 404s. I believe this is the study [0] and it focuses on a single call-center. It's not a broad survey of 16,000 workers. [0]: https:/…

Okay, so what numbers would you believe? Collectively, there are hundreds of billions of dollars in market cap and value generated by remote first tech or very remote friendly companies of various sizes. The argument can't be made these orgs would be more productive if everyone was dragged into the office on feels alone.

https://builtin.com/remote-work/best-places-remote-work

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#282
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect this is because for so long (as long as I can remember) they've had all of the power and control. We are heading into a recession (if not there already). As the strong labour market deteriorates, this power imbalance will shift back to managers.

I'm not sure the specific labor markets we are talking about will deteriorate substantially.

There’s already layoffs and downsizing announced weekly. Even pausing growth will have an effect.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#283
post #23

There's nothing wrong with that, and I have many friends that like the social upsides of having an office. But I think it will become increasingly common to divide social life and work in the future. Imagine the following: You have a few good friends in Berlin and each of you work for different companies. But you all work remotely. You could rent a small office space with your friends everyone could work from there,…

Every time that this topic comes up it goes the same way. I wish that we could all collectively agree that this is a PREFERENCE . One way is not objectively better than the other. They both have trade-offs. We could actually make some progress if we focusing on having WFO and WFH people better able to collaborate together . One anecdote: I've been working fully remote for the last year. I prefer WFO but such is the w…

Crazy that it turned into a disaster. Ours went so well that we wanted more of it even after the in-person event. We only had one person on Zoom though. I don't know your situation at all, but it sounds like people felt the need for multiple conversations that may have been pent up like a dam til that meeting.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#284
> I know that "the office" is a bad place for a lot of people. There may be product managers that ignore the noise-cancelling headphone stop-sign and make you lose your stack of thoughts just to ask if the dev app URL is still the same it was yesterday. There can be bad managers and unpleasant situations all around. But shouldn't we rather work on fixing those things instead of making them bearable by just turning off a camera in a Zoom meeting?

Being in an office makes me borderline suicidal. I've been remote since before the pandemic and it seriously improved my life. I can turn off my zoom camera so I can sit back in my chair and listen/respond without the appearance of laziness. I can turn my camera on when I want someone to see my face, for example in an important meeting or a one-on-one. I can choose when and how I work and configure my environment exactly how I want it. I don't have people constantly at my desk, or work-issued hardware that is unacceptable, etc. Most importantly, I don't have to wake up early and commute to my personal version of hell where I am trapped with golden handcuffs. With remote work I can demonstrate my actual value without having to maintain appearances. I can go to the doctor, handle a quick errand, whatever, and as long as my work gets done that's all people can judge me on. It's beautiful. The meritocracy is beautiful. We spend way to many brain-cycles on the concept of appearances when work should be only measured by work.

If it wasn't for remote work I wouldn't be able to make a wage more than what my state offers. If it wasn't for remote work I wouldn't be able to take as many vacations, I wouldn't be able to go to school to pursue my passions, etc. It has actually empowered me to take care of myself first, as I should, in so many ways it really drives home the point that office work is slavery.

> I used to love going to the office. Discussing our team's latest Python problems over a coffee. Looking over at their screen and then asking them why they look like they want to beat someone over the head with their keyboard repeatedly. Guessing people's emotions in a heated Retro from their body language. Grabbing dinner with a few colleagues after a long workshop meeting in the evening and then realizing that, aside from all the differences we might have about static typing in programming languages, we all like the same exotic progressive metal bands.

You are probably generally a person who is energized by being around people. I am not, never have been, and never will be. People, in my opinion, are an unfortunately side effect of having to work in public. That's not to say I am anti-social, but rather introverted, and I prefer to control when and how I engage with people. Moreover, office politics in the "cancel era" made it so I didn't really want to talk to anyone anyway. At the height of this craze I wasn't even sure what non-obvious word would send me to HR. The office sucks, period.

> Many of these things that made my job much more than slaving at a digital conveyor belt seem to be gone these days

You were still a slave.

> I am just wondering if that is really the case for the majority or what it is that I'm missing.

Remote work benefiting people who take care of loved ones is a benefit to those in the relatively rare case of doing that. For most of us, remote work was removing the shackles of management and allowing true merit to shine through. If you can work effectively surrounded by your toys you can work effectively anywhere. Rather than playing politics and dealing with micromanagers I can just work. You can tell that a lot of people believe this because the amount of anti-remote propaganda coming out of major think tank companies is extremely high. If it didn't put the ball into the worker's court the propaganda simply wouldn't be necessary.

> . As soon as a company's IT department is practically fully remote, why should they page a German wage for someone who is a face on a screen, when they can pay a fraction for that same face broadcasted from a few hundred kilometers further east or south? German is hardly used in business context here anyway and lower-wage countries within ±3 hours timezones abound.

Remote work didn't change this. This is a misunderstanding of the market. Since before remote work so-called "import labor" formed the backbone of most major companies. It's been 30 years since country-first labor in tech was a thing. Infosys and cognizant have been around for a very long time.

> All in all, there is a gnawing feeling in me that Covid made a significant dent on the once fun (Berlin Startup) tech working culture for good.

There are plenty of ways to meet like-minded people that don't involve having to follow office politics and rules. You aren't looking hard enough if you can't find them.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#285
post #87

If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world: Assume for a moment that working remotly and a flexible workday would have been always the default. And now some companies decide: Hey let's contractually enforce a 9 hour continuous workday where all our workers will be locked in a big ugly building that we build just for that purpose (Btw. at lea…

Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living sp…

> Need to get in touch with Bill? Just stroll over to his desk

Yeah, this is part of the problem most WFH folks have with most WFO folks. We fucking hate this.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#286
My perception is that the die hard WFH people have the most to PERSONALLY benefit from WFH, whereas the WFO people are either more focused on the collective outcomes for the company or have a low personal cost to WFO (I.e. have a short commute popping into the office is easy)

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to comment on the entire Apollo Technical source, but I think some of their claims are misleading. For instance, they say this: > A study by Standford of 16,000 workers over 9 months found that working from home increase productivity by 13%. They link to the study, but it 404s. I believe this is the study [0] and it focuses on a single call-center. It's not a broad survey of 16,000 workers. [0]: https:/…

Okay, so what numbers would you believe? Collectively, there are hundreds of billions of dollars in market cap and value generated by remote first tech or very remote friendly companies of various sizes. The argument can't be made these orgs would be more productive if everyone was dragged into the office on feels alone. https://builtin.com/remote-work/best-places-remote-work

I would believe any numbers that were objectively presented with sound methodology. Using a single call center study as evidence that worker productivity increases just doesn't make sense. Most work isn't anything like working in a call center.

Here is another misleading claim from that link:

> Working Remotely Can Increase Productivity up to 77%

But they then clarify that "77% of those who work remotely at least a few times per month show increased productivity." Productivity increasing by 77% is not the same as 77% of people experiencing any productivity gain. Also, they link to a source for this claim, but the link takes you to a blog spam page titled "43 Productivity Tools That Will Make Your Life Much Easier." There is no mention of the claim on this page.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#290
There are so many variables involved that no two people have the same office or remote experience.

One big factor, I believe, is age.

The younger you are, the more your colleagues may also be social partners. You're fresh out of university (or close enough that you remember the lifestyle), and having other people to do things with is a common need. But as you're spending most of your time in an office, the pool of potential partners (even potentially romantic) is essentially the people you work; you see them most days.

Also, when you're younger you tend to have fewer responsibilities. Most of us, once we have kids, find that all of our free time has vanished. And even if you spend 2-3 hours with your kid in the evening, you feel guilty that you're not giving enough time to them. That means you'll accept fewer of the after-work activity offers from your colleagues. That change will also affect the relationship dynamics with you and your colleagues, unless they all happen to be at about the same stage of life (in which case you may have playdates with them and everyone's kids).

And once you get old and your kids are grown, you typically have a million things you'd like to do or get done; so extra time at the office or with colleagues is very low priority.

Another big factor is type of company. Tech-first companies are probably more fun in general than "normal" companies. I would rank the companies in this order of fun-ness based on my personal experience: 1. computer game development shop. 2. wealthy finance company with big tech investment. 3. any gig where you work with other consultants who travel and get huge travel allowances to spend :). 4. all the rest - "typical companies".

In my almost 30 years of work, about half has been remote. Aside from the gamedev shop and the finance shop, the other office experiences were boring or horrible. Recently I got a very good offer from a bank to tech-lead a high profile project. But the second I walked in the door to do the interview, I felt that dread. Yeah the building was shiny, there were lots of glass walls, and I'm sure there was "free coffee". But there were also big open rooms, half height cubes, and a general feeling of The Office. I had to turn it down. And then I had to turn down the much-sweetened followup offer. They were offended, the recruiter was baffled, and I was relieved. I couldn't explain that such an environment made me hate life even before I had spent a full day there.

Location, climate, and commute also are big factors.

A nice 20min bike commute in good weather is lovely (and healthy!). But rainy windy cold weather means either an awful biking experience where you arrive sweaty and wet, or you fight everyone else with your car; or you take public transport and let two metros leave without you because you will not cram yourself in with everyone else who is dodging the weather.

Most people living and working in the US are stuck with cars as the only way to get to work. Years of driving 30-60 minutes each way to and from work, in heavy traffic, very negatively affects most people. You hate every motherfcker on the road with you, and you need half an hour to get over the simmering rage upon arrival. If you live in Texas, you also have to worry about that rdneck in the pickup... does he have a gun? If you take that little opportunity to get over, and it offends him, will he shoot you? Crap like this happens, even if you're driving politely. Many of the people around you are (also) very angry about the situation.

And if you live fairly far from the equator, winters mean very short days. You go into work while it's dark, and you come out of work while it's dark. I'm a happy night owl, but I also do need sunlight. You can't get that sunlight when there's barely any and you're trapped in an office. At least working from home, when that lucky moment of sun occurs, I can drop what I'm doing and go outside.

Freedom is the thing I value most about remote working now. I work from wherever I want, whenever I want (to a degree of course). If I want to dodge the crappy winter and work from an island in southeast Asia, I do. I get a nice breakfast with excellent fresh fruits delivered to me each morning, I sip my coffee on the deck just before the beach and ocean, and I get a massage at lunch if I want. I work a few hours here and there when my mind is ready, and I go enjoy life the rest of the time.

I'm not rich, and I earn a lot less than probably a lot of HN readers... for sure WAY less than the MAANG people. But it's enough to be happy and free and not burn money on overpriced housing and car gas to commute.

All that said, I do get that a lot of people _need_ a good amount of direct social contact more than they need the things I care about. So an office environment is great for people who really need that. But there certainly are those of us who need far less social, or get it outside the office and thus don't need an office.

Lastly, the older I get and the more full my head is with ideas and who knows what else, the more difficult I find to get into the "flow". Being in an office, _if_ I'm fortunate to get into the flow, there's a much greater chance that someone or something will break me out of that flow. But working from home, I especially find that 10pm-2am is my best time. The world around me is quiet, nobody is calling me or walking up to me, and I can do what I do. Put me in an office with a 9-6 schedule and you'll get about 30% productivity. What a waste of my time and your money.

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