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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#201

Post by smileysteve »

You've got to turn off the conveyor belt flow. Many teams will do this at first and then they'll release in that vacuum and frustrate people with surprise (we should have talked about x). It's possible in office and work from home to work non collaboratively. Team members have to ask questions, in grooming, in stand or slackups to leave that conveyor belt. "how can I help", "will you share your screen as we talk through this", on a code review, "oh this is a different way to do it, but here is how I had imagined it", in a meeting "let's connect as one blocker gets out of the way of the other"

> Grabbing dinner with a few colleagues after a long workshop meeting in the evening

You can still do this! If you're close to any coworkers, leave the bubble of home and go out to eat. (Attendance will tell you how many people really wanted to be there) Alternatively, you can blend this with friends and partners along with coworkers.

> Discussing our team's latest Python problems over a coffee

You can still do this. Even over zoom. And hopefully not just talking about python.

> Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary.

You can try to hire people that are more candid - or just be the shining example of someone eager to listen. (This is also true of all environments)

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#202

Post by davidgerard »

samuel_backend wrote: post #70
throwaway294566 wrote: post #56

> I always saw tech as the field where a disproportionally large amount of people truly love what they do. You do confuse "loving what they do" with "being at the office" and "socializing during slack time". I do love my job but I do hate socializing with people, which is definitely not my job. That is why I'm working in IT, I don't have to socialize beyond the bare minimum to be successful. I think IT attracts intro…

Honestly, I feel this is a bit of a black-and-white view that grossly oversimplifies things. And I am downright insulted by the last sentence to be frank. Blaming shitty management on extroverted techies. Are you sure about that?

You're demanding we waste our lives and energy to entertain you in the office. What did you expect?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#203

Post by munchausen42 »

adamhp wrote: post #87
munchausen42 wrote: post #73

If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world: Assume for a moment that working remotly and a flexible workday would have been always the default. And now some companies decide: Hey let's contractually enforce a 9 hour continuous workday where all our workers will be locked in a big ugly building that we build just for that purpose (Btw. at lea…

Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living sp…

The only relevant difference is in which part you use the word "force" in the description of the hypothetical world.

In the real world, however, no one is usally forced to WFH. But we were forced to WFO.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#204

Post by ilaksh »

jjice wrote: post #170

I've been working remote for a year and a half now at a company that has never had an office. First off, I will say that I really love remote work. Despite that, I do miss the social interactions that you get with your coworkers. When your social interaction is limited to time before meetings start, you lose a lot of what you had in an office. I personally have never worked a job where I didn't like at least a few of…

There are actually many startups making software for online shared spaces for remote work with side conversations, etc. Or 3d shared working environments for VR or the desktop. There is also Discord which has text, video and voice chat which is really convenient (like two clicks).

The Meta Quest Pro should be much better for AR/VR meetings. Also it's great for realistic table tennis and Demeo (kind of like D&D).

It's fairly trivial to set up a way for a webrtc video call duo to split off from a group. I assume there is already a startup doing that.

There are also co-working places in most cities now.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#205

Post by robbie-c »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #192
peyton wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can literally flip the O and H and change the “what makes me happy” part to get the opposite side’s point of view.

> You can literally flip the O and H and change the “what makes me happy” part to get the opposite side’s point of view. No. The points of view are not equal and opposite. Some people who advocate WFO do so because they just want to work in an office (for various reaons) and they don't care how many co-workers do the same. But others want other people to also be present in the office to create the environment that th…

It just seems like those people should work at different companies. Having a mix of people who prefer WFO and WFH seems like the worst of both worlds. (WFO people don't get the atmosphere that they desire, WFH people are second-class citizens for collaborative activites, WFH seniors have reduced ability to mentor their juniors, WFH people still need to live a commutable distance from the office).

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#206

Post by jnwatson »

I definitely understand the social aspects of WFO. I do miss it sometimes.

The tipping point for me though is the environmental cost. All those workers shlepping their body to and from work is a tremendous cost to the local and global environment.

I occasionally go into the office. But I regularly have 3-5 meetings with teams in different cities. Going into the office just to take video calls isn’t a great use of time.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#207

Post by jcpst »

andsoitis wrote: post #185
bodge5000 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the choice, I'd never take a hybrid role. It means I still need to keep the "infrastructure" needed to get to the office (eg a car, public transport around me is terrible), but it sits unused 90% of the time. I can't get properly comfortable working at home or in the office because I'm constantly in between the two. Its just not for me.

For twice a month you could probably Uber / rent a car and expense it, no?

Every time I’ve traveled for work, they do not expense the portion where you leave from your home. It’s up to you to get to work.

So if you drive, you “leave from the office” (i.e. calc the distance from there), or drive to the airport, and getting from home to the airport is on you.

Curious to hear if this is different for others.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#208

Post by throwaway2037 »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #90

It sounds like you're an extrovert. The tech scene tends to have more introverts, hence why this is a controversial opinion for your friend circle. I think of it like this - extroverts gain energy from social interaction, introverts lose energy from social interaction. Working in an office environment with all extroverts is great so long as the company's work doesn't require more introverts than it has available. But…

This part: >

I see this a lot on HN. There is an explicit bias here for introverts and deep work. This view overlooks the more extroverted roles usually held by direct managers and product managers. (Introverted sales doesn't even make sense in most cases; so ignore that side.) I have seen too many introverts who think they are doing genius-level work, but hardly talk to their teammates. The worst reinvent the wheel over and over again. (Proof reading this post, I thought of one more strange pattern that I observe: More extroverted people tend to write more documentation than introverted people. It's like a 'technical performance'. The introverts just keep it all inside. Sure there are exceptions, but that is an odd pattern that I observe!)

To be clear: I'm not for or against any side, but I can and do see the benefits of both on a daily basis. Also, I acknowledge the continuum between sides and inherent dynamism (people can temporarily "shape-shift" between sides).

Another thing that never gets talked about here: What about people are more extroverted than average, but still do plenty of deep work? It describes me very well. (Please do not read that description as humble bragging / uber-genius. I am an average developer. Also, I am neither a direct manager nor product manager.) As an example, if I go too long on deep work mode, I frequently stall with "analysis paralysis". My extroversion allows me to step back (heh, sometimes!) and ask for help. If the advice is unsatisfying, or "go away, I am busy", then I try someone else. In my daily work, I try to form a rough sin() wave between 80% deep work and 80% highly collaborative tasks.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#209

Post by bart_spoon »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #21

I miss the office. More work got done and less time was spent on stupid shit. Sadly my company's office is being renovated, so I don't think I can go until next summer earliest, but I will be there as soon as possible. Remote workers can go and pretend to work elsewhere.

> Remote workers can go and pretend to work elsewhere

Interesting coming from the camp that is both bemoaning the fact that they can’t spend hours of their day socializing at work, as well as the fact that they apparently can’t get work done without others holding their hands.

I suspect that the people claiming more productivity in office aren’t actually all that productive, and what productivity gains they have comes at the expense of the productivity of their coworkers.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#210

Post by voisin »

cmiles74 wrote: post #133
adamhp wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living sp…

In my opinion, it's the employers that are pushing us to view these as two opposing extremes. I suspect this is because for so long (as long as I can remember) they've had all of the power and control. Clearly something more personal is the best solution, there's likely also an age component here as well. I know that with a child it's much more convenient to be at home most of the time. Now that employers have given…

> I suspect this is because for so long (as long as I can remember) they've had all of the power and control.

We are heading into a recession (if not there already). As the strong labour market deteriorates, this power imbalance will shift back to managers.

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