Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#181

Post by fluoridation » Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #160

buscoquadnary wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This right here. I realized long ago I should do whatever I can to the best of my ability. If my superiors want to do something stupid or use my skillet in a suboptimal way my responsibility is to do my best to council with them, share what I see and then do the best job I can at whatever I am assigned to, assuming over course it doesn't cross legal or moral boundaries. My job is not my Identity we have an economic a…

If my boss wants to pay me a SWE salary and then insists I clean out the break room fridge on Friday that is his perogrative not mine. I mean... I can buy this to a point. But for me personally, there are lines. And there are things I'm just not going to do. Period. I know it's un-trendy to talk about anything being "beneath you", and I'm not sure that's the wording I would use, but there are simply things that I don…

I think each person has their limits of what they are or are not willing to do, but I have to say, I find it strange where you decided to draw the line. Personally, I wouldn't do anything that grossed me out or that I found demeaning or humiliating. For example, I probably would have refused to sweep that parking lot if I thought the person telling me to do it was doing it just to show that they could; but if it was something that needed doing and there was no one else, I see no issue.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#182

Post by ttoks » Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 5:02 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #94

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #17

Personally I think the concept of growth is a scam to get people to work harder for less. You can certainly grow your skill set, but intelligent people can rise to the occasion in most jobs. Including CEO/Director/High level decision making jobs. Everytime I have received some insultingly low offer from a startup, they start talking about "growth", "what I can own", "wearing many hats". Meanwhile, the founder is sitt…

Yes, my biggest problem with how promotion processes work at big companies is this. How you're supposed to perform at your currently level is pretty well spelled out by your manager - exactly what your expectations are, etc. However, you're supposed to perform at the "next level" prior to being promoted. Expectations are less clear here. This leads to you doing a lot of things you think will get you a promotion (most…

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Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#183

Post by wonder_er » Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 5:03 PM UTC

buscoquadnary wrote: post #24

mattw2121 wrote: post #9

I had a situation once where we had a minor re-org and I ended up with a new manager. Literally day one, he made an attempt to change everyone's role. We were a team of developers and business analysts. He decided that everyone would become both and spend 50% of their time on each activity. Not sure why he thought this was a good idea, but he did. After he announced it, I had a 1x1 with him and clearly let him know t…

This right here. I realized long ago I should do whatever I can to the best of my ability. If my superiors want to do something stupid or use my skillet in a suboptimal way my responsibility is to do my best to council with them, share what I see and then do the best job I can at whatever I am assigned to, assuming over course it doesn't cross legal or moral boundaries. My job is not my Identity we have an economic a…

I've done a lot of service jobs, and commercial construction jobs, and have a deep appreciation for a clean and well-organized space.

I love to sweep. If I could get paid as a SWE to just speak and "garden" our office, to make it a more pleasent environment, conducive to peaceful thought and pleasent interactions, I'd take that job in a heartbeat.

Christopher Alexander is a bit of a god-father of object-oriented programming, and architecture: https://dorian.substack.com/p/at-any-given-moment-in-a-proce...

He believes that all work on something new starts with "repairing" the environment in which that new thing is being created. (The codebase, the room, the block).

The first step of repair is to tidy and clean.

Sooooo I can weave a compelling story to others about why cleaning and tidying is in fact _very_ reasonable to do, and some could argue it's some of the more important work someone could do.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#184

Post by hacksoi » Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 5:08 PM UTC

buscoquadnary wrote: post #24

mattw2121 wrote: post #9

I had a situation once where we had a minor re-org and I ended up with a new manager. Literally day one, he made an attempt to change everyone's role. We were a team of developers and business analysts. He decided that everyone would become both and spend 50% of their time on each activity. Not sure why he thought this was a good idea, but he did. After he announced it, I had a 1x1 with him and clearly let him know t…

This right here. I realized long ago I should do whatever I can to the best of my ability. If my superiors want to do something stupid or use my skillet in a suboptimal way my responsibility is to do my best to council with them, share what I see and then do the best job I can at whatever I am assigned to, assuming over course it doesn't cross legal or moral boundaries. My job is not my Identity we have an economic a…

Your job should be your identity. You do it 8 hours a day. Your growth is extremely important. Ideally your job aligns with your values. If you haven't found this job yet you should keep searching. Do not complicate this with "economic arrangements" - you're just afraid.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#185

Post by chrismarlow9 » Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

throwarayes wrote: post #33

exabrial wrote: post #10

I would approach this with a dose of humility. I used to think I had it all figured out too; now, older me realizes how ignorant I was and surprised how tolerant management was of my flagrant pomposity.

I agree. However life is short and after trying half a dozen things over a year, it’s creating a lot of mental health problems for me. It is likely I have failed. I have tremendous empathy for this boss. But I also have to think of my strengths and where I can be successful elsewhere.

You didn't fail. You just found half a dozen things that don't work. Work on yourself for a while.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#186

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th » Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

malfist wrote: post #165

mindcrime wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If my boss wants to pay me a SWE salary and then insists I clean out the break room fridge on Friday that is his perogrative not mine. I mean... I can buy this to a point. But for me personally, there are lines. And there are things I'm just not going to do. Period. I know it's un-trendy to talk about anything being "beneath you", and I'm not sure that's the wording I would use, but there are simply things that I don…

You sure showed them! I bet that advance auto manager thought real hard about asking anybody else to....sweep. I'm glad you realized your hands were too important to be callused by a broom

seriously, while I understand and agree with the sentiment in general, you're a clerk at a small store, sweeping the parking lot doesn't seem outside of your duties.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#187

Post by nscalf » Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

mclightning wrote: post #172

nscalf wrote: post #78

The real problem here is that hiring is a giant pain for both sides. In an ideal world, you would quickly quit that job and hop to another. If you didn't do that, they would quickly hire you and both sides would move on without much stress. But changing jobs/employees is a big deal involved insurance, retirement funds, dozens of hours of interviews over many weeks, etc. My advice for anyone in this spot is to quit qu…

I got a question. I started doing that about a year ago. One thing that worries me is how it looks on the CV, that you quit a job after a month or two. Even worse, when you have more of those in there.

I don't put them on my CV. I generally explain gaps on my resume as working on side projects or doing some consulting looking for a good long term fit.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#188

Post by II2II » Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

peteradio wrote: post #171

malfist wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sure showed them! I bet that advance auto manager thought real hard about asking anybody else to....sweep. I'm glad you realized your hands were too important to be callused by a broom

Quite snarky, heres my story. Worked at a big box home improvement store as a 15 year old kid on checkout. Someone literally shit diarrhea all over the floor, the store manager asked literally everyone in the store to clean it up including me, everyone refused, he ended up cleaning it himself. Some things are not part of the job!!!

The thing is, the mess had to be cleaned up and the manager did it after everyone else refused. There are limits, sure. You need proper equipment to clean up such a mess because it is a health and safety issue. I can also understand why no one would want to step up. When everyone else is a refuses the job, stepping up is a good way to end up being the one called upon to do it in the future. But the reality is that people were probably refusing because they didn't want carry their weight.

But kudos on the manager. He realized that it had to be done, then went ahead and did it without ordering anyone else to do so.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#189

Post by earnestresponse » Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

buscoquadnary wrote: post #24

mattw2121 wrote: post #9

I had a situation once where we had a minor re-org and I ended up with a new manager. Literally day one, he made an attempt to change everyone's role. We were a team of developers and business analysts. He decided that everyone would become both and spend 50% of their time on each activity. Not sure why he thought this was a good idea, but he did. After he announced it, I had a 1x1 with him and clearly let him know t…

This right here. I realized long ago I should do whatever I can to the best of my ability. If my superiors want to do something stupid or use my skillet in a suboptimal way my responsibility is to do my best to council with them, share what I see and then do the best job I can at whatever I am assigned to, assuming over course it doesn't cross legal or moral boundaries. My job is not my Identity we have an economic a…

I can appreciate this, I think to some degree (especially in a physical office) there is a degree of community required, and as long as there is a general acceptance that this kind of "other stuff" is either minimal or accepted in lieu of your "regular" work (as opposed to in addition to), I think it's OK.

My main concern, honestly, is not so much that the work is "beneath me" but more that I get pidgonholed doing that work. I know this isn't realistic, but I don't want come review time for people to say "it's great you do this stuff around the office/for the team/for the org" but it doesn't affect your metrics.

In some cases, I think the fear is being asked to do these things in a non-documented way means you have no evidence that you had these "extra-curricular" things you had to complete.

I'm fortunate I haven't had that happen to me, but it's a fear I always have at the back of my head whenever these sort of requests happen.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#190

Post by heisenbit » Tue, Oct 18, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #160

buscoquadnary wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This right here. I realized long ago I should do whatever I can to the best of my ability. If my superiors want to do something stupid or use my skillet in a suboptimal way my responsibility is to do my best to council with them, share what I see and then do the best job I can at whatever I am assigned to, assuming over course it doesn't cross legal or moral boundaries. My job is not my Identity we have an economic a…

If my boss wants to pay me a SWE salary and then insists I clean out the break room fridge on Friday that is his perogrative not mine. I mean... I can buy this to a point. But for me personally, there are lines. And there are things I'm just not going to do. Period. I know it's un-trendy to talk about anything being "beneath you", and I'm not sure that's the wording I would use, but there are simply things that I don…

You have a valuable SWE skillset which is the result of major investments on your side. If you can maintain this skillset and credibly convince your next boss that you did so by cleaning fridges - go ahead.