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Dear JetBrains, Don't mess with your UI

neil.computer

301–310 of 420 posts

Re: Dear JetBrains, Don't mess with your UI

#301
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just Reddit, Gmail also got worse with time. Even now when I look at Gmail 2004 I find it superior to the current UI.

Controversially: I also much prefer the usability of older Windows operating systems, the scrollbars that don't hide, the double click semantics that are consistent across the whole OS. It might look a lot prettier now, but it's much harder to actually do things from zero knowledge, I do fear we've regressed.

I’m going to say something even more controversial, but true; that the obfuscated thing these two prior comments are really noting is a degradation that has been obscured in distracting color or design language changes. It’s akin to “shrinkflation” that is now even totally overshadowed by the real rise in prices they said wouldn’t happen, people are starting to notice things like “hey, why are there now far less features than 30 years ago, and why does it cost 10x as much?”

”New packaging, same great taste” the professional liars proclaim; as the box got emptier, the false bottom bigger, the air more voluminous, the filler lower quality. No, no. Worse things are in fact good for you. The party proclaimed it, so you are required to believe it. Or else.

Even more controversial is both the cause and the remedy, for which the overwhelming number of people, especially on a site like this, have absolutely no interest in facing; so I will refrain from expanding on that. It’s irrelevant anyways, because the consequences are as inevitable as they were clearly predicted and suppressed.

The abusive relationship that the western world in particular is currently in, remains largely furiously defended, like any other abusive relationship the abused have not yet faced reality about.

That results in continued comments one can also see in these threads, proclaiming essentially how “no, no, degraded features and lower information density against my will is actually a good thing”, which is no different than “I would not get beaten if I just made smarter decisions”.

Re: Dear JetBrains, Don't mess with your UI

#302
I've actually used the new UI, on Rider and WebStorm on Linux. It's not bad, and majority of changes make it more usable. When I go back to an older install, I prefer the new UI.

- Increased margins/padding: At first, I thought it was a waste of space - but things are now easier to click on. I realised this when loading an older version on another machine. I'd still like to be able to tweak this - the document tabs are too padded.

- The main menu was hidden inside a hamburger menu. This was nasty - fortunately there's a "Show main menu in toolbar" option. This really should be on by default for non-mac.

- I wasn't keen on the darker colour scheme, I switched back to the old dark - it took less than a minute to learn I actually prefer the new one.

- Can only have 4 docked tool windows open at once (2 side, 2 bottom).

- Toolbars are easier to customise, but I wish I could combine the navigation bar into it, as I only have a few buttons on the right.

- The bright blue "run/debug" toolbar is distracting

- I've not noticed any removal of colour from the menu icons, and there are no animations

Overall, there isn't much to be upset about - took me minutes to get used to, no nowhere near as bad as the Visual Studio 2013 UI refresh.

Re: Dear JetBrains, Don't mess with your UI

#303

> - Rounding of corners. Religion at this point > - Homogenization. JetBrains wants to be like VSCode > - Animations. Haven't seen them but it will be filled Seriously, HN? This is the quality that you reward with hundreds of points? Unlike the author, I happen to have used this UI for the past five months and it solves many of my longstanding gripes with IntelliJ: - Gutters are now much better at highlighting local…

This one caught me out;

- "The toolbar has less icons now" - It's customisable, you can put whatever you want in there. Yes, with colourful icons.

I was wondering where the back / forward buttons were, but realised after a while that they can be put back in, just with some configuration.

Re: Dear JetBrains, Don't mess with your UI

#304
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that they haven't already considered it? It's rather offensive to assume that a group of UX professionals decided to take on a massive overhaul just for fun. Given UX has never been a major priority at JetBrains, it implies that they decided it was valuable enough to spend the time and money on this. I just can't imagine this was done on a whim

This isn't really JetBrains fault, but the track record of products making full redesigns is bad enough that we do tend to assume that the priorities, values, and considerations of UX professionals run contrary to developers/users priorities, to the point where the result is often less useful/ergonomic than what it replaced. To be fair, this tendency to prioritize your own values above those of your users is not uniq…

> For example, Linus' insistence that kernel developers "don't break userspace."

Wait, what? Is that meant as a counterexample?

Re: Dear JetBrains, Don't mess with your UI

#305
The most useful thing that kept me using JetBrains was the key-mapping homogeneity between JetBrains, MacOS, and Chrome (e.g. the same key-mappings are used to go back, forward in history, through tabs, to close a tab, ...)

Now I'm finding the key mappings (ex: Multi-line select) and functionalities (setting up your workspace a module) are drifting across the JetBrains products.

Attention is needed with these UIs to prevent drift and preserve homogeneity across applications.

Re: Dear JetBrains, Don't mess with your UI

#306

Eh, I have used vim, spacemacs, sublime, vscode, atom, eclipse and netbeans. Jetbrains IDEs have superior functionality out of the box across languages and don’t require me to mess with and debug a million plugins. I don’t mind a UI refresh, it’s going to be just like the gmail refresh everyone hated it and now we’re all fine with it. I just wish they would invest more money into things that are actually a problem cu…

If you are a professional developer, and plan to be working for several decades, is it really that much of an investment to maintain your editor config a la vim or emacs? I did a lot of work setting up vim 10 years ago, and have only had to tweak it since. It works exactly as I expect, anywhere, in a terminal, for free, and setup is as easy as checking out a repo and running a script. JetBrains is good for stuff I ra…

I'm constantly surprised that people have trouble finding things in JetBrains IDEs, because they have search everywhere, for everything. You can even look for "actions" in the double-shift menu: just press Cmd-Shift-A (I suppose Ctrl for Win/Linux) and type a few letters. I found that way easier than figuring out how to configure vim, because there is no discoverability from inside the editor itself, and I frequently had to google several times before I found a way to get the behaviour I wanted. This gets even worse when you're using plugins for LSP etc.

(Emacs, of course, has best in class discoverability via M-x and C-h, which allow you to find and introspect basically everything that's available to you, but then Emacs is an OS, not an editor)

Re: Dear JetBrains, Don't mess with your UI

#307

I love how all the panels/windows in Jetbrains are just text. Like "run", "maven", "database", "terminal". The new icons take up more than twice the space (thickness vs the vertical text), and conveys nothing at all about what they do. Also one of the reasons I'm not that thrilled about Fleet. I get it's easy to just in general be negative to change. But these are professional tools. I've used it for over a decade. I…

I'm the same on icons vs text. I read the text label and "know". An icon is horrible as I find them meaningless, so I have to click or hover to check for tooltips.

Another reason icons suck is that different apps use the same or similar icons for different things, my memory just doesn't "click" with simplistic icons.

The old UI is information dense but easy to work with. It is one of the reasons I went to and paid for Jetbrains on my own dime, rather than using VS Code like others at my workplace.

The new UI looks nice but it won't work well for me. If they want everything to be so similar to VS Code then I might as well use that.

Re: Dear JetBrains, Don't mess with your UI

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly yes, I would rather pay someone to do it than maintain it myself especially across languages it just becomes a real nightmare. I need text editing, jupyter rendering, sql client, csv spreadsheet rendering, vim keybindings, git client, terminal/ssh, autocomplete, documentation tooltips and “run highlighted in repl” support at a minimum. These are all part of my weekly workflow, I have tried to use spacemacs b…

I have only recently tried GoLand while living in vim for ~5 years. IMO vim's autocomplete is significantly better than GoLand. Not saying the rest of the auto-insert helpers, but the completion itself is way better imo.

GoPLS is honestly really good, and while I haven't tried GoLand myself, I have no trouble believing you. Even rust-analyzer beats IntelliJ Rust IME. I'm very bullish on language servers because these two (and ElixirLS, though it isn't on the same level as GoPLS and rust-analyzer IMO) are countering the common assumption that you need an IDE to have powerful dev tools.

Re: Dear JetBrains, Don't mess with your UI

#309
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IntelliJ reindexes existing jdks and the whole spring ecosystem on my system, daily. I think their developers have no idea how it works either and just gave up some time after the useless shared indices came out.

Do you have enabled "Public shared indexes"? It should be able to download pre-built indexes for both JDK and many Maven libraries.

It's on. I just switched to an IntelliJ window that hasn't been used for a few days and -indexing!

Re: Dear JetBrains, Don't mess with your UI

#310

Yes, vim + a couple of plugins. It has it’s downsides, but one thing it does well is being familiar, and never breaking a contract. Even the plugins themselves can be pinned to a certain version.

Admittedly I do update my plugins, but I've had ridiculous levels of breakage with CoC
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