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Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

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Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#301
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that much like tracing blockchain transactions, cash is much easier to trace for governments than most people realize. For example, it is my understanding, most banks and ATMs scan serial numbers when receiving or distributing cash; oddly, banks will not give you itemized list of serial numbers of the bills they distributed, which would be useful in cash seizures. Also my understanding that most c…

> most banks and ATMs scan serial numbers when receiving or distributing cash That is potentially a clue. But in itself would not answer to a legal certainty (that one fact) that a bill with a serial number in a nefarious transaction means the person who withdrew it (from the ATM) made the transaction. 1) I can withdraw $300 from an ATM and purchase a coffee (using $5 of that). That $5 might be refunded as change to…

You’re expanding way beyond what’s necessary to track significant amount of cash transactions; also, not claiming 100% of transactions are able to be tracked, just that significant percentage of cash transactions are not anonymous and average person assumes they are.

My assumptions include:

- Knowing how cash is flowing is extremely valuable to governments for a number of reasons; economic, investigations, counterfeits, etc.

- Cash management businesses scan 100% of their cash received or distributed, voluntarily provide that data and meta data to governments, and majority of cash transactions are non recirculated, but withdrawn, used, deposited.

- Governments have a wide-spectrum of resources to trace cash on a bill by bill basis; likely key methods include face scans, serial numbers, and location data via apps/cell.

- Assumption that if you combined all the prior assumptions and fact that many governments have millions to research topic, often leverage their authority, etc — and it is not a stretch to believe governments are able to identify significant percentage cash transactions if prior assumptions are true.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#302

Wish more people knew about Monero. It pretty much replaced Bitcoin on the dark web and other markets where private, anonymous transfers of money is essential. Every crypto on most KYC exchanges exposes every transaction on its public ledger. Monero and minuscule amount of other coins use cryptographic techniques to hide wallets and their history. Most other coins won't add this as they will be blacklisted like Moner…

So a coin deliberately designed to evade all government regulation - what the rest of us call "laws". This seems highly negative for society. We already lose hundreds billions of dollars a year to tax evasion.

Crypto before going mainstream and investors getting involved was a middle finger to corrupt establishments that manipulate and steal the value of our money. Bitcoin was created and emerged as a reaction to the 2008 financial crisis and Central Banks like the Federal Reserve. Monero as a project is driven to go back to Bitcoin's original philosophy and improve on it. Also, not every law in the books is just and governments use plenty of our money for nefarious purposes.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#303
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that blockchains cost more and add significant performance reliability problems without adding trust. You could solve this problem using PKI with orders of magnitude lower computational and storage cost, and that'd remove the requirement to have an always-on network service. However, that's still missing the point that this is fundamentally a problem about humans in the real world and the technology ca…

> The problem is that blockchains cost more From each participant's perspective they cost far less, both in terms of implementation and ongoing maintenance, than attempting to build and run a centralized database oneself (and if you're gonna match a blockchain's trustworthiness, every participant would indeed need to run a database oneself). > and add significant performance reliability problems 1. Nothing beats the…

> From each participant's perspective they cost far less, both in terms of implementation and ongoing maintenance, than attempting to build and run a centralized database oneself

This comparison isn’t valid: you’re using a shared blockchain service with high transaction costs but then saying the comparison can’t use a shared service.

> 2. They do the precise opposite of adding reliability problems; they're in fact notoriously difficult to bring down given the sheer degree of data replication.

So you’re saying I can process blockchain transactions without a reliable, high-speed network connection? I never have to worry about fee increases or high volume impacting my clearance time?

> The comment to which you replied describes at length how they add considerable degrees of trust.

It describes a number of distractions from the core problem but doesn’t solve any of the hard ones. The fundamental misunderstanding you and the poster are operating under is that this kind of system is based on anonymity. Since the real world is not, you don’t need anything which PKI doesn’t give you far more efficiently.

> > If my inspector is being paid off, he'll do the same thing for the blockchain record that he was doing with paper.

> Which would then be public and uncensorable evidence against that inspector.

Just like it is currently, except with hefty transaction fees. The problem here is that you need someone to figure out where things are being faked in-person. A blockchain can't solve that because the problem happens in the real world and if you setup an oracle to inject that information you're just renaming that existing trust relationship, not removing it.

> > If things are being tampered with in shipping, the same people will do the same things and you'll have the same dodgy goods arriving at their destination except they'd now have valid but inaccurate blockchain records.

> And that inaccuracy would - upon detection - become public and uncensorable evidence against those tamperers.

Just like it is currently, except with hefty transaction fees. Again, “public” isn't relevant — all of the parties already know each other and if it goes to court they're going to produce records — and “uncensorable” is just meaningless blockchain marketing fluff because that's not a relevant problem or one which a blockchain effectively prevent.

In all of the cases I outlined, the problem requires real world checks to find who is faking the records. Whether those records are paper, actions tracked on a website, PKI signed documents, or transactions recorded on a blockchain is a rounding error on the difficulty of setting up the real world legal system and monitoring which actually prevent cheating. If I have a problem with counterfeit goods showing up, everyone involved is going to say that their records were accurate and the problem must have been somewhere else – all a blockchain tells you is that you paid more to store the receipt, not that it was accurate.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question is, what are the benefits of not accepting cash? Credit card processing fees, cash collection services (ie hiring armored trucks), theft concerns (both from employees and robberies), and the accounting headache of dealing with cash are all valid reasons depending on the area and business. There are trade offs on both sides of accepting/not accepting cash.

Which all translates into higher expenses for the business, and I'll repeat myself that I'm ok with the business being required to take on that expense.

The coercive power of state for thee, but not for me.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#305
post #52

“No shit”. Wait, you mean something that literally tracks any and all actions in a literal chain of history that is immutable is easy to track?!? You mean that pattern recognition can be applied to even “randomized” in both size, time, and destination of transactions can be done to track like how they can track burner phones? I’m shocked! Shocked I say!

When it comes to cryptocurrencies, a lot of people involved are so ignorant that "water is wet" statements come as a genuine revelation to them. Why? Bitcoin advocates have been deliberately targeting very ignorant and naive people because they're easy money.

I don't think that's the case. Look at some of the serious projects: - https://samouraiwallet.com/ - https://keys.casa/

It's pretty much focused on heavily tech-savvy people.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are people going to do moral things against an immoral enforcer when the enforcer becomes immoral, if we assume all are too immoral to have the right to privacy?

Let me get this straight. Because some people are corrupt, you feel no law should apply to you or anyone? Or... really, I can't come up with any sensible interpretation of what you wrote other than that.

> right to privacy is good

> oh so you think you're above the law now?

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#307
post #4

Entirely traceable money is easier to trace than borderline untraceable money? Great.

> The traditional banking model achieves a level of privacy by limiting access to information to the parties involved and the trusted third party. The necessity to announce all transactions publicly precludes this method, but privacy can still be maintained by breaking the flow of information in another place: by keeping public keys anonymous. The public can see that someone is sending an amount to someone else, but…

Proof of work was invented from the start, as an anti-spam measure. The user sends data to a server and alongside of that, sends some proof of work data. This simple system has a downside though, that is ASICS. A specialized ASICS hub of servers, can create as much spam as they wish, because proof of work for the specialized system is trivial to compute. One solution to that problem, is for ASICS hubs, to create the proof of work, and sell it to users. Add on top of that a public database of what ASICS proof of work was sold to who, and you've got Bitcoin. It is really that simple. Instead of fighting the ASICS hubs, you work with them.

This technique, is so simple it should not be even be considered a technology, it is just a technique. A myriad of technologies can use this technique to add some additional properties, to an already existing technology. For example, in the IOT world, an oven connected to the internet, could be used only by a particular key in the blockchain, thus proving ownership to control the oven. One microtransaction can turn on the oven, or turn it off.

The most important aspect of bitcoin, is of course spam prevention. Gmail servers just block any unknown mail provider, just in case they are spammers. When spam was limited to email messages, that was a viable solution for the internet. This however is gonna change.

Synthetic data, i.e. deepfakes, are really gonna take off right now. Synthetic faces of people can be uploaded by the tens of millions to facebook each day. Synthetic photographs of places can be uploaded to Insta. Synthetic conversations can can be uploaded to twitter by the billions. Synthetic songs can be uploaded to bandcamp, terabytes of them every day. Synthetic videos can be uploaded to youtube, or tik-tok, petabytes every day.

The advertisement based free model of posting information on the internet, will go down in flames in less than 4 years.

A new technique is going to emerge, in which we send value to the hosting providers, for our information they are willing to host for us. That value, trillions and quadrillions of microtransactions, less than a cent each per day, it is difficult to track, but it can be done, the question which arises is, what can someone gain doing that?

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#308
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that blockchains cost more From each participant's perspective they cost far less, both in terms of implementation and ongoing maintenance, than attempting to build and run a centralized database oneself (and if you're gonna match a blockchain's trustworthiness, every participant would indeed need to run a database oneself). > and add significant performance reliability problems 1. Nothing beats the…

> From each participant's perspective they cost far less, both in terms of implementation and ongoing maintenance, than attempting to build and run a centralized database oneself This comparison isn’t valid: you’re using a shared blockchain service with high transaction costs but then saying the comparison can’t use a shared service. > 2. They do the precise opposite of adding reliability problems; they're in fact no…

> This comparison isn’t valid: you’re using a shared blockchain service with high transaction costs but then saying the comparison can’t use a shared service.

The parenthesized bit immediately following what you quoted (in addition to other parts of the comment and its grandparent) specifically explains why the comparison can't use a shared service: who's going to run it while being trustworthy for all users of it?

> So you’re saying I can process blockchain transactions without a reliable, high-speed network connection?

You need one for any other database, especially a shared one as you suggested above. In fact, it'd need to be more reliable and more high-speed for a non-blockchain solution; even full nodes don't require continuous uptime (that's only needed for mining or staking, neither of which is necessary to query and post transactions), and blockchain transactions tend to be pretty light on bandwidth.

> Just like it is currently, except with hefty transaction fees.

1. Citation needed on "hefty transaction fees". There are blockchains other than Ethereum, in case you weren't aware.

2. You're forgetting (or perhaps deliberately ignoring) that it's considerably easier to "figure out where things are being faked in-person" when the evidence of fakery is permanently in the public record. There's also far less room for plausible deniability on the faker's part.

> “uncensorable” is just meaningless blockchain marketing fluff

You might be surprised to learn that traditional database records, unlike those on blockchains, are trivial to destroy or otherwise tamper with. The inability to cover up fraud by editing transactions after-the-fact is nowhere near as meaningless as you assert.

> Whether those records are paper, actions tracked on a website, PKI signed documents, or transactions recorded on a blockchain is a rounding error on the difficulty of setting up the real world legal system and monitoring which actually prevent cheating.

And setting up said real world legal system and monitoring is considerably easier when the digital records are auditable by pretty much anyone and effectively impossible to modify.

> all a blockchain tells you is that you paid more to store the receipt, not that it was accurate

A blockchain tells you that the receipt was not and will never be modified. If there's an inaccuracy, that makes it much easier to detect it. If there's a pattern of inaccuracies, that makes it even easier to detect it and quantify it. What would've previously taken weeks or months worth of wrangling records from filing cabinets or arbitrary databases can instead be done in minutes or even seconds - freeing up time for the actually-hard parts of such investigations.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#309
post #52

“No shit”. Wait, you mean something that literally tracks any and all actions in a literal chain of history that is immutable is easy to track?!? You mean that pattern recognition can be applied to even “randomized” in both size, time, and destination of transactions can be done to track like how they can track burner phones? I’m shocked! Shocked I say!

Care to expand on the burner phone part?

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is one of the laziest ones that you can make. "No it isn't" is literally the top (least useful) strata of the argument pyramid, provides precisely zero extra information, and doesn't belong on Hacker News.

It's not worth going point by point when there's so many fundamental misconceptions. Best to reject the entire comment. What HN needs is less engagement with useless, time consuming misinformation, and more outright rejection of it.

The fact that you made a second comment, yet provided absolutely no refutations of any of the points in the original comment under discussion, suggests that you cannot refute their points.

Although, the phrase "What HN needs is less engagement with useless, time consuming misinformation, and more outright rejection of it." instead suggests that you are of the totalitarian nature that prefers to suppress dissenting thought entirely, so I'm not sure what to think.

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