Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

lancengym.medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 328 posts

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#281

Post by TomSwirly »

seanw444 wrote: post #135
breck wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really concerning. How are people going to use blockchain to do nefarious things if it's easier to track?

How are people going to do moral things against an immoral enforcer when the enforcer becomes immoral, if we assume all are too immoral to have the right to privacy?

Let me get this straight.

Because some people are corrupt, you feel no law should apply to you or anyone?

Or... really, I can't come up with any sensible interpretation of what you wrote other than that.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#282

Post by outworlder »

yeputons wrote: post #244
crazygringo wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what that means...? Edit in response to comments: thanks, but it's never been a problem. I have multiple credit cards and I can call 24/7 to resolve an issue with one and use another as backup. And then there's also my debit card, Venmo, and PayPal to be able to fall back on. And if the internet is down for days across my whole city then there might be even bigger problems to be worrying about... So just…

Holidays, basically. The branch is closed and nobody really cares if your card cannot be processed for whatever obscure reason. No chat or phone support, obviously, you have to go to your own personal banker, who is on holiday. Happened at least once with a major country-wide bank in EU this year with some of my friends, and I doubt it's either the first or the last occurrence.

> if your card cannot be processed for whatever obscure reason

That's why I carry at least two (physically _and_ in Apple wallet). One Visa, one Mastercard, one is issued by my credit union, the other by a large bank.

If both Visa and Mastercard are down and both banks are unreachable then there are bigger issues. Connectivity issues where more common when transactions relied on landlines. It's pretty rare now.

I also carry some cash as last ditch backup. Some places may be temporarily not accepting cards.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#283

Post by outworlder »

deepspace wrote: post #262
josefresco wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point is, cash is hard to trace. When I see a business that doesn't take credit, I think... tax evasion.

Exactly. The number of people who NEED to keep their transactions private for non-criminal purposes is miniscule compared to the number of tax evaders. It pains me every time I go to Costco and I see contractors dressed in their work clothes pull out a wad of cash to pay for their groceries. They are effectively getting a 30% discount on the price I pay by not processing their income through the banking system and no…

> The number of people who NEED to keep their transactions private for non-criminal purposes is miniscule compared to the number of tax evaders.

In democracies. For as long as the government remains stable.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#284

Post by merely-unlikely »

outworlder wrote: post #279
blaser-waffle wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ledger as a permanent history available to the world, in real time, of every single transaction. arguably a selling point. just not for selling large quantities of online drugs.

Or for people buying or selling anything that's currently legal but that could then become illegal during their lifetime.

Laws are generally not retroactive (though admittedly this principle does get violated).

> The Ex Post Facto Clause, contained in Article I, Section 9, Clause 3 of the Constitution, provides: “No . . . ex post facto Law shall be passed.” The phrase “ex post facto,” Latin for “after the fact,” refers to laws that apply retroactively. While the Ex Post Facto Clause on its face might appear to bar all retroactive legislation, courts have applied the Clause only to penal laws.

> Congress has much greater leeway to enact retroactive legislation in the civil sphere than in the criminal sphere. However, certain constitutional limits apply, and courts interpreting ambiguous statutes apply a general presumption against retroactivity.

https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/IF11293.pdf

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#285

Post by merely-unlikely »

josefresco wrote: post #210
alexb_ wrote: post #80

I have refused to shop at numerous stores because they make a point of not accepting cash. Cash is incredibly important for modern society due to actually being untraceable and allowing for private transactions. Plus, a society without cash is one where you are forced to use central banking. Blockchain is just trying to imitate cash digitally, which as it turns out is really hard to do. So it just ends up that people…

> The point is, cash is hard to trace. When I see a business that doesn't take credit, I think... tax evasion.

> When I see a business that doesn't take credit, I think... tax evasion.

Maybe but I default to, doesn't want to pay credit card fees.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#286

Post by calibas »

anonporridge wrote: post #266
MichaelCollins wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to cryptocurrencies, a lot of people involved are so ignorant that "water is wet" statements come as a genuine revelation to them. Why? Bitcoin advocates have been deliberately targeting very ignorant and naive people because they're easy money.

Bitcoin advocates have generally been exceedingly clear about these kinds of things. To the point of begging people to listen. From "not your keys, not your coins" to "KYC/AML bought coins are easy to trace" to "please, for the love of god, don't give your coins to the centralized Celsius to try to eek out an extra 10% gains you greedy dumbass". People consistently don't listen. Crypto pumpers on the other hand tend…

All the "Bitcoin advocates" that I've ever talked to couldn't tell a merkle tree from an oak.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#287

Post by merely-unlikely »

P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #258
JackFr wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stores should be perfectly free not to accept cash. While our money says "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private", that assumes there has been a meeting of the minds who agree to conclude a transaction. But up until that point I don't see an obligation. And I don't see using the force of government to compel people to do something increases their freedom.

Which means the unbanked cannot do business there. How do the unbanked pay their electric bill? 1 of three ways. 1. They walk into the electric company directly and pay directly (no fees) 2. They walk into a store that "supports" said electric company and pay (with fees) 3. They find a kiosk that accepts the cash and pay (with fees). 1 implies they have access to a vehicle or that they take public transportation. The…

> The question is, what are the benefits of not accepting cash?

Credit card processing fees, cash collection services (ie hiring armored trucks), theft concerns (both from employees and robberies), and the accounting headache of dealing with cash are all valid reasons depending on the area and business.

There are trade offs on both sides of accepting/not accepting cash.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#288

Post by wintermutestwin »

maxwell wrote: post #189
NegativeK wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm > Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts…

True, but that taco shop m̶u̶s̶t̶ may have to accept cash if they want to operate in Arizona, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, D.C., Idaho, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, or Tennessee. Or Berkeley, Chicago, or San Francisco. And everywhere else in the U.S. if the Payment Choice Act passes. https://www.cashmatters.org/blog/america-legislates-fo…

>San Francisco

Went to a concert in SF at the Independent last month and the bartenders wouldn't take cash. You're saying they were breaking the law?

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#289

Post by merely-unlikely »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #197
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #55

For clarity: 1. Bitcoin addresses are 100% traceable from the first to the last transaction that's ever taken place. 2. Tracing a Bitcoin address to an individual depends on the individual's OpSec. For example: bank account to exchange to Bitcoin is traceable with the help of the exchange's KYC records, assuming they have them. From there, any further Bitcoin transactions can be traced to an individual. Buying Bitcoi…

They have bitcoin atms now, just wear a surgical mask when you go into the headshop that has them and you are anonymous.

The ones I've seen require an ID. Not sure how universal that is though

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#290

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th »

merely-unlikely wrote: post #287
P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means the unbanked cannot do business there. How do the unbanked pay their electric bill? 1 of three ways. 1. They walk into the electric company directly and pay directly (no fees) 2. They walk into a store that "supports" said electric company and pay (with fees) 3. They find a kiosk that accepts the cash and pay (with fees). 1 implies they have access to a vehicle or that they take public transportation. The…

> The question is, what are the benefits of not accepting cash? Credit card processing fees, cash collection services (ie hiring armored trucks), theft concerns (both from employees and robberies), and the accounting headache of dealing with cash are all valid reasons depending on the area and business. There are trade offs on both sides of accepting/not accepting cash.

Which all translates into higher expenses for the business, and I'll repeat myself that I'm ok with the business being required to take on that expense.
Post reply on HN