Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#21

Post by legulere » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:16 PM UTC

DisjointedHunt wrote: post #2

They've only delayed it until its politically easier to shut it down. The German greens' leader has backed running Coal plants as an alternative[1] The whole political position of this party rests on their fanatic opposition to Nuclear power. [1] https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/19/energy/germany-russia-gas...

The coal plants are running as an alternative to gas plants, as is described in the link you posted. The shutdown of the nuclear plants was long planned. Germany managed to decrease dependence on fossil fuels for electricity production while shutting down nuclear plants.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Energiemix_Deutschla...

Now another topic that should be talked about: Germany could have shut down coal first, and nuclear second.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#22

Post by anm89 » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #4

Good. Germany was facing a cold winter, without energy for heating, and the potential for rolling blackouts. With this change, it does not eliminate the threat but makes it less likely. Who in their right mind would decom any type of energy that could help stave off pain for their citizenship - especially one that has no carbon footprint.

Germany is still facing a very cold winter by all accounts. This will help around the margins

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#23

Post by kleiba » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

_dain_ wrote: post #12

hef19898 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany heats with gas, which is plenty in storage and again reasonably priced at markets. Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. Keeping the reactors online is good so, as it means less coal being burned, being ablebto trafe electricity on the markets, frees up the roughly 12% of electricity generate by gas (at least to an extent) for heating. And signals st…

>Germany heats with gas [...] Germany isn't heating with electricity And whose fault is that? Why can't their much-vaunted Energiewende manage to keep people warm? After half a trillion dollars of public investment in green energy?

There is no widespread infrastructure for heating with electricity, the dominant sources for heating homes are gas and oil. The reason for that is that until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil. And let's not forget that the current "shortage" is a result of political decisions, and not because gas and oil have ceased to exist.

Germany is in the process of moving to greener energies, not just on the state level but also in private homes. But that's mostly true for new constructions of which there are comparatively few. Coincidentally, the German government has recently announced to de-incentivize new construction and rather suggest updating existing houses. It will take many years, though, to get all those houses to move off of gas and oil, especially because Germany has a relatively high percentage of rentals over home owners. There's no real reason for landlords to update the heating system of their investment properties because the cost for heating is paid by the tenants anyway.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#24

Post by vladvasiliu » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:18 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #19

legulere wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also good for France, which currently has a shortfall of electricity and is heating with electricity.

Doesn't France only have a shortfall because rivers were low during summer and Nuclear Reactors couldn't produce regular outputs? The rivers won't be low in the winter.

Around half of the reactors are shut down for maintenance. Some scheduled, others for faults discovered during inspection. They expect to be back online only at the beginning of 2023.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#25

Post by TheLoafOfBread » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

DasIch wrote: post #10

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #4

Good. Germany was facing a cold winter, without energy for heating, and the potential for rolling blackouts. With this change, it does not eliminate the threat but makes it less likely. Who in their right mind would decom any type of energy that could help stave off pain for their citizenship - especially one that has no carbon footprint.

Electricity does not magically create gas for heating. Electricity in europe is primarily threatened by France failing to adequately maintain their nuclear power plants.

Yes it does, Power-to-Gas - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-gas

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#26

Post by jansan » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #9

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #4

Good. Germany was facing a cold winter, without energy for heating, and the potential for rolling blackouts. With this change, it does not eliminate the threat but makes it less likely. Who in their right mind would decom any type of energy that could help stave off pain for their citizenship - especially one that has no carbon footprint.

Germany heats with gas, which is plenty in storage and again reasonably priced at markets. Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. Keeping the reactors online is good so, as it means less coal being burned, being ablebto trafe electricity on the markets, frees up the roughly 12% of electricity generate by gas (at least to an extent) for heating. And signals st…

If there is a gas shortage later in winter, which may well happen, people can switch to their cheap electric heaters to at least keep their living rooms warm. I cannot believe that the green party was willing to severly increase the risk of major blackouts out of pure vanity.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#27

Post by pjmlp » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

_dain_ wrote: post #12

hef19898 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany heats with gas, which is plenty in storage and again reasonably priced at markets. Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. Keeping the reactors online is good so, as it means less coal being burned, being ablebto trafe electricity on the markets, frees up the roughly 12% of electricity generate by gas (at least to an extent) for heating. And signals st…

>Germany heats with gas [...] Germany isn't heating with electricity And whose fault is that? Why can't their much-vaunted Energiewende manage to keep people warm? After half a trillion dollars of public investment in green energy?

One reason is that the lawmakers have allowed those same people to stop the construction of any source of green energy when it is too disturbing for the landscape, or too noisy for them to sleep, or whatever they come up with.

So lesser countries in Europe already managed to have higher count of green energy sources, while lots of construction yards in Germany are blocked on ongoing court cases.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#28

Post by bombcar » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #9

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #4

Good. Germany was facing a cold winter, without energy for heating, and the potential for rolling blackouts. With this change, it does not eliminate the threat but makes it less likely. Who in their right mind would decom any type of energy that could help stave off pain for their citizenship - especially one that has no carbon footprint.

Germany heats with gas, which is plenty in storage and again reasonably priced at markets. Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. Keeping the reactors online is good so, as it means less coal being burned, being ablebto trafe electricity on the markets, frees up the roughly 12% of electricity generate by gas (at least to an extent) for heating. And signals st…

Many gas furnaces cease working when electricity fails.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#29

Post by MichaelCollins » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

tomschlick wrote: post #5

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #4

Good. Germany was facing a cold winter, without energy for heating, and the potential for rolling blackouts. With this change, it does not eliminate the threat but makes it less likely. Who in their right mind would decom any type of energy that could help stave off pain for their citizenship - especially one that has no carbon footprint.

> Who in their right mind Activist politicians who value their cause more than the well being of their citizens.

I don't think this is fair. Although I think some among the anti-nuclear movement may have had subversive intent, most of the people who ended up aligning with that movement did have good intentions. They were reasoning that in the long term, nuclear power would bring great misery to humanity. Long term thinking is good, right? If you believe in the eventual probability of those doomsday scenarios, and you value the well being of your fellow citizens, then shouldn't you try to prevent that outcome? I see no moral fault here.

And shaming these people isn't the solution. The solution is to bring them around to seeing the virtue of using nuclear power. They may be wrong about the relative safety of nuclear power but they aren't morally defective people, so shaming them isn't appropriate.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#30

Post by myth_drannon » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

jansan wrote: post #26

hef19898 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany heats with gas, which is plenty in storage and again reasonably priced at markets. Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. Keeping the reactors online is good so, as it means less coal being burned, being ablebto trafe electricity on the markets, frees up the roughly 12% of electricity generate by gas (at least to an extent) for heating. And signals st…

If there is a gas shortage later in winter, which may well happen, people can switch to their cheap electric heaters to at least keep their living rooms warm. I cannot believe that the green party was willing to severly increase the risk of major blackouts out of pure vanity.

Well, but electricity is also generated by gas (at least part of it)