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Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

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Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck during bank holidays.

I don't know what that means...? Edit in response to comments: thanks, but it's never been a problem. I have multiple credit cards and I can call 24/7 to resolve an issue with one and use another as backup. And then there's also my debit card, Venmo, and PayPal to be able to fall back on. And if the internet is down for days across my whole city then there might be even bigger problems to be worrying about... So just…

In my country, there are holidays when bank offices are unavailable.

While you typically are still able to use ATMs and pay by card, any glitches you encounter can only be resolved after the banks open again.

In the past month I've encountered two such glitches: once the ATM debited my account but did not give me the cash, and another when my card payment errored out repeatedly and I had to pay cash.

Having some cash on hand can be prudent under these circumstances.

Everything was resolved by next day, however.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#242
post #80

I have refused to shop at numerous stores because they make a point of not accepting cash. Cash is incredibly important for modern society due to actually being untraceable and allowing for private transactions. Plus, a society without cash is one where you are forced to use central banking. Blockchain is just trying to imitate cash digitally, which as it turns out is really hard to do. So it just ends up that people…

> The point is, cash is hard to trace. When I see a business that doesn't take credit, I think... tax evasion.

If you're in a sketchy area it's possible that a lot of your customers are.... ahemm..... engaging in questionable activity with the cards they happen to have. This can skyrocket the premiums or even result in your processor dropping you.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#243
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$625k seems like a lot but in the world of government contracting it’s often not. It may be motivating this, but I’m kinda skeptical.

Yeah $625K across two years is just like 3 developers in NYC. It's not a lot of money.

In government contracting, $625k is more like one whitepaper.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck during bank holidays.

I don't know what that means...? Edit in response to comments: thanks, but it's never been a problem. I have multiple credit cards and I can call 24/7 to resolve an issue with one and use another as backup. And then there's also my debit card, Venmo, and PayPal to be able to fall back on. And if the internet is down for days across my whole city then there might be even bigger problems to be worrying about... So just…

Holidays, basically. The branch is closed and nobody really cares if your card cannot be processed for whatever obscure reason. No chat or phone support, obviously, you have to go to your own personal banker, who is on holiday.

Happened at least once with a major country-wide bank in EU this year with some of my friends, and I doubt it's either the first or the last occurrence.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#245
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can track where a bill was distributed, what bank it came from, who withdrew that cash, but past that you can't track any of the transactions that happen. The transactions being tracked is the important part here.

If a store makes daily deposits and those serial numbers are scanned, you can narrow down the transaction to a day. Security footage will show the transaction happening. It's a bit of work, but if that happens to you twice there aren't too many people who visited the same two stores those two days. They now know what you look like and can find your other movements across other security cameras. Bingo, you were tracke…

Volume of work required really depends on where money is spent. Many retailers not only scan all faces, but if another method of identifying the customer is not available will use third-party services or government partnerships to identity the customers and tie them to a cash transactions. Few retailers even scan large bills real-time at the point of sale.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect chainalysis is describing some "poisoned output attack" with respect to monero. See: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iABIcsDJKyM The problem is a well-understood but innate limitation to all sender-obfuscating cryptocurrencies.

Sorry, I didn't watch the video, but couldn't that be avoided by churning a few times?

Sort of, but not really. It is a very nuanced probabalistic attack. The problem is fundamentally that you need others to use your outputs as decoys in order to have plausible deniability.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#247
post #52

“No shit”. Wait, you mean something that literally tracks any and all actions in a literal chain of history that is immutable is easy to track?!? You mean that pattern recognition can be applied to even “randomized” in both size, time, and destination of transactions can be done to track like how they can track burner phones? I’m shocked! Shocked I say!

When it comes to cryptocurrencies, a lot of people involved are so ignorant that "water is wet" statements come as a genuine revelation to them. Why? Bitcoin advocates have been deliberately targeting very ignorant and naive people because they're easy money.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#248
post #80

I have refused to shop at numerous stores because they make a point of not accepting cash. Cash is incredibly important for modern society due to actually being untraceable and allowing for private transactions. Plus, a society without cash is one where you are forced to use central banking. Blockchain is just trying to imitate cash digitally, which as it turns out is really hard to do. So it just ends up that people…

I do the same, but thankfully it's unusual that a shop refuses cash. I hope to do my part in keeping it that way.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#249
I do struggle with the "you coppers will never track me with my new cryptocoin!" mentality I see around (and on this thread).

I do not subscribe that the view that "innocent have nothing to fear". If our transactions are visible for all to see then huge amounts of privacy issues become salient.

It's just that I don't believe secrecy is the solution.

Firstly, there is no digital secrecy. But mean maybe you have years long perfect opssec, but each of your partner transactions now need to be perfect. It's just not gonna work.

Secondly, why don't live in a secret world - the people I interact with know what I am doing each day - it's just either not worth their while to exploit me, or they are too polite, or exploiting their knowledge of me is kind of the point (my regular cafe just sees me sit down and the order is in). Yes the digital world made the marginal cost of exploitation much lower so third parties have got in on the act.

Anyway, the point is that it's either not feasible, likely or even desirable to move like a ghost through the world.

Technology will not magically fix our political problems - haters gonna hate, totalitarian governments gonna totalitarian. Our politics need to be solved with politics. I remember when we thought email and the web would create peaceful communities, when facebook would free the Arab world. And realpolitik always came back.

Please - let's not hope that some clever coding will fix deep seated political problems - especially with, of all things, money.

Let's get back to the brass tacks - informed, organised mass democracy. It's hard and dirty and means talking to other human beings. Not HN ideal :-)

Edit: TLDR

Do I want the director of the FBI to track my online spending? No!

Do I want the director of the FBI to track the money laundering by international cartels and criminals? Yes!

What's the difference? Democracy, individual rights, the rule of law, transparent law enforcement, strong institutions and so on.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#250
post #80

I have refused to shop at numerous stores because they make a point of not accepting cash. Cash is incredibly important for modern society due to actually being untraceable and allowing for private transactions. Plus, a society without cash is one where you are forced to use central banking. Blockchain is just trying to imitate cash digitally, which as it turns out is really hard to do. So it just ends up that people…

> The point is, cash is hard to trace. When I see a business that doesn't take credit, I think... tax evasion.

Uh huh. When I see somebody with a locked smartphone, I think criminal with something to hide.
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