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A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

cleveland.com

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Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#121

Post by EdwardDiego »

colechristensen wrote: post #77
ceejayoz wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"derived from the milk thistle plant" likely involves more than just "eat some powered plant"; Wikipedia seems to indicate it involves more purification steps than the supplement form of things.

There’s a difference between purifying and using something as a basis for synthesis. The question is, why not the plant itself? (Dried and powdered in a readily available pill)

Silychristin[0] and mycotoxins[1]?

[0]: https://academic.oup.com/endo/article/157/4/1694/2422745?log... [1]: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jafc.5b02105

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#122

Post by ratsmack »

BurningFrog wrote: post #114
roywiggins wrote: post #88

"Gholam says that the process of FDA approval for Silibinin is slow, primarily because it only works for amatoxin poisoning, from the Amanita mushroom species. Those poisonings are rare – so gathering enough data to satisfy the safety and efficacy requirements of the FDA takes time." Okay, but there must be data, since the EU approved it based on something, right?

Sure, a rational version of FDA would accept it based on EU approval data. But that's not the FDA we have.

With the FDA, you need to follow the money.

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#123

Post by duskwuff »

dmitrybrant wrote: post #100
quirino wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which method do you use for checking the mushrooms?

It's cultural knowledge passed down through generations. Mushroom foraging is super popular in Russia and other Slavic countries, and my grandmother taught me most of the fundamentals before we immigrated to the US, and I continued to study field guide books on my own. When you get to know the specific bits of anatomy of the mushroom body, the trees with which they're symbiotic, the seasons in which they occur, etc.,…

Incidentally, I've heard that a significant number of people get poisoned by mushrooms when they learned to recognize edible mushrooms in another country (often China or Eastern Europe), then move to the US and try to forage for mushrooms here. Knowing one region's edible/poisonous mushrooms doesn't make you an expert on anything outside that region.

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#124

Post by [deleted] »

DangitBobby wrote: post #111
SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re misunderstanding the point here. Mushroom identification isn’t the same as bike selling or rock identification because the purpose of those isn’t to avoid danger. Almost the entire purpose is to reduce the “rolling the dice” factor in mushroom eating. In fact, that is precisely why traditional mushroom identification has such a wealth of deep knowledge, such as noticing ecological location, weather pat…

I don't think the intended purpose of the app is to tell you whether a mushroom or plant is edible or not, I think it's merely meant to identify plants, fungi, and other things for a hobbyist who's into botany and the like. I could definitely see where you're coming from if the app advertised itself as a "a great wilderness survival companion app" or something like that... But we're pretty much speculating, here. Thi…

[deleted]

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#125

Post by manmal »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #105
bombcar wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a 72 hour window it sounds simpler to bundle the patient in a plane to Europe.

You also have the option of flying to Europe, getting the drug, and flying back with it to give to the patient.

Both the importing and the administering person would incriminate against themselves.

The FDA just has to get their act up.

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#126

Post by malkia »

bombcar wrote: post #61
nkurz wrote: post #44

Since no one has done it yet, I'll ask the obvious question about the FDA: how many people die or need a liver transplant each year because the FDA is being unreasonable here? Here's some quotes from the article: Approximately 40% of people who ingest the deadly Amanita mushrooms die or require a liver transplant, according to Dr. Pierre Gholam, the liver specialist at University Hospitals who treated Hickman. ... Th…

With a 72 hour window it sounds simpler to bundle the patient in a plane to Europe.

Unless the agency cancels the flight.

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#127

Post by 1letterunixname »

adrr wrote: post #87
colechristensen wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a difference between purifying and using something as a basis for synthesis. The question is, why not the plant itself? (Dried and powdered in a readily available pill)

Dose is probably really low if you just used dried milk thistle and you need to refining and purify it to take via an IV. Same goes with acetylcysteine for Tylenol a overdose, you need to get it via an IV and you can’t just take the over the counter supplement.

Also, every household that has Tylenol should have, and co-administer, N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) because it's hepatoprotective. The stinky sulfurous supplement that the FDA partially banned.

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#128

Post by arcticbull »

mattigames wrote: post #116
thaumasiotes wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also have the option of flying to Europe, getting the drug, and flying back with it to give to the patient.

With the ridiculous prices of health care in America it's likely also cheaper too.

I was going to say the same thing. I'm sure the bill is in the high tens of thousands if not low 6 figures in the US. Would be curious if someone has a bill. It's probably $100 in Europe without insurance.

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#129

Post by bee_rider »

ratsmack wrote: post #122
BurningFrog wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, a rational version of FDA would accept it based on EU approval data. But that's not the FDA we have.

With the FDA, you need to follow the money.

Did you? Where did it lead?

Re: A rash of nearly lethal mushroom poisonings in Ohio

#130

Post by Aloha »

nkurz wrote: post #44

Since no one has done it yet, I'll ask the obvious question about the FDA: how many people die or need a liver transplant each year because the FDA is being unreasonable here? Here's some quotes from the article: Approximately 40% of people who ingest the deadly Amanita mushrooms die or require a liver transplant, according to Dr. Pierre Gholam, the liver specialist at University Hospitals who treated Hickman. ... Th…

"Gholam says that the process of FDA approval for Silibinin is slow, primarily because it only works for amatoxin poisoning, from the Amanita mushroom species. Those poisonings are rare – so gathering enough data to satisfy the safety and efficacy requirements of the FDA takes time. And there is little financial incentive by the company that owns the drug to invest in its research and development."

Incidentally, these protections exist because of several breakdowns in drug safety in the past, notably Elixir sulfanilamide and Thalidomide.

I'm not suggesting that there should be no improvements, I think there should be a conditional use waiver program that allows these drugs to be in the field. But suggesting that it should be criminal that it's not is over the top moralizing and provocation of outrage for little return.

Also, there are good reasons why this drug is restricted access too - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silibinin

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