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Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

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Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#341
post #100
post #4

Something similar happened to the cod fishing industry in Newfoundland and other parts of eastern Canada 30 years ago. The reason: overfishing, due in large part to technological advances. Here's what happened: Canada and NAFO continued to overestimate the abundance of cod in the Atlantic Ocean and therefore continued to set dangerously high [Total Allowable Catches]. This was in large part due to the widespread prac…

> to prevent economic losses and massive unemployment So sad to see how easily long term catastrophic damage is justified by short term gains.

It's idiotic from an economic point of view too. There'd still be an industry if they'd scaled it back and made it more sustainable. Instead the industry has been wiped out and that's that.

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you believe in the rule of law and human rights, then globalism seems like a natural consequence, as does policing the world. You might ask, what problems is globalism going to solve that treaties and national cooperation can't today? More importantly, what will those mechanisms be and will they be just as vulnerable to the problems of corruption and interconnection that plague the meaningful enforcement of trea…

> Recently, we did have a very globally similar response to a world wide event, and I'm not at all surprised that during that time the rich managed to make themselves much richer and the middle class has mostly taken the hit. If that's a hint to what "globalism" has to offer, you can keep it. We'll have to figure out the fishing problem some other way. You're probably talking about the world wide COVID response, and…

I think maybe you have the benefit of hindsight, but even so your argument is perhaps unfounded.

First, I think it's worth pointing out that, for the most part [1],politicians operated in good faith, trying to balance multiple factors. There were a variety of strategies persued by different countries [2],and its somewhat unclear which was actually best in the long run. Social scientists will be dissecting the long term effects for decades.

Finally, the overall outcomes have been exceptionally mild. Globally a very large absolute number of people died. But as a fraction of total population it was tiny. A vaccine was developed, and distributed, such that everyone who wants to be vaccinated has been, probably many times.

Finally I don't think people would have responded any better to technocrats than politicians. Technocrats are not good at guiding large population groups, and are mistrusted by many.

In truth we still don't know which approach was (long term) the best, or even what the "best" ultimately means.

[1] the event itself was unprecedented in living memory, and there was no relevant historical data to lean on. Experts were consulted, only to get lots of speculation and varying opinions. In truth experts had very limited data to work with and most would have preferred a lot more data before making recommendations.

[2] Some countries had simple border structures (new Zealand) and could persure a total-close approach. Some had national lock downs, some had no lockdown (Sweden).

Overall though it seems outcomes were better in places where populations had a high degree of trust in their authority structures. Places like the USA with high volumes of distrust fared the worst. Changing the authority would not have changed that mistrust.

In some countries politicians erred on the side of safety - at the expense of the economy, in others maintaining personal freedoms, at the expense of a few deaths, was the primary goal. Which makes sense. Personal freedom advocates have never minded other people dying to maintain those freedoms. And the overall death rate was low enough that there was no real mass-fear of death coming to me.

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in the Alaska fishery and am typing this while sat in one of the largest fish processing facilities in the western hemisphere. I have the spare time because, well, there's no crabs coming in and everything else is mostly out of season. About half of the boats on Discovery belong to the company I work for, the largest in the US. So I'll take the opportunity to share some on-the-ground observations. Overfishing:…

> Disease: Is there a precedent in Earth's natural history of a 90% die-off in two years due to disease On mobile, so I can't provide a link. Look up sea star wasting disease. It's affected several species of sea star from Alaska to the Gulf of Mexico. One species, the sunflower star went from being everywhere to a red listed endangered species over just a couple of years.

I'm not readily finding numbers but certainly adjectives like 'devastating', 'massive', etc, so can't specifically compare. Might we suppose that interest of study is correlated with commercial interest? But it does occur to me that it could be a confluence of factors, like the hypothesis about Colony Collapse Disorder in bees having multiple factors synergizing.

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These have flopped. Most people who like meat want real meat. Most people who don't like meat don't want fake meat. The remainder is the market for fake meats, and it has proven small.

I wonder what it is that drives the human desire for meat. Meat substitutes seem to be trying to solve the environmental issues by taking advantage of that inbuilt natural desire, albeit imperfectly. I have to wonder if thay is an easier strategy than trying to change people's habits on a mass scale.

> what it is that drives the human desire for meat

My guess is that it's a calorically dense nutritionally complete food (if you like eating organs)

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#346

Overfishing is a classic problem of "Tragedy of the Commons". The oceans are the commons. For example, nobody is predicting a catastrophic decline in the population of pigs, chickens, and cattle. Fish farming is the future.

Tragedy of the Commons is a fallacy.

1. Postulate the Commons

2. Also postulate private interests

3. Let private interests have unfettered access to the Commons

4. Problems!

The tragedy is supposedly Commons, but clearly the problem is private interests having unregulated access to the Commons. Tragedy of Private Interests?

In any case this seems like more of a climate change issue (again…)

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#347

Overfishing is a classic problem of "Tragedy of the Commons". The oceans are the commons. For example, nobody is predicting a catastrophic decline in the population of pigs, chickens, and cattle. Fish farming is the future.

I have large cognitive dissonance to "we shouldn't be the world police" and "globalism is bad." At face value I agree, but... If you believe in the rule of law and human rights, then globalism seems like a natural consequence, as does policing the world. What would happen if you let China have global hegemony and they become the over-fishing police? What type of enforcement do you think they might have (or non enforc…

[deleted]

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop using them so much?

Yeah, how about we shut down large swaths of national economies. That's produced nothing but positive effects for all involved over the last couple of years.

Trains could replace a large portion of trucking and short haul flight. Food production can be much more localised in many places, and supply chains which see products circumnavigate the world several times will end themselves the second they have to pay for externalities.

The remained can be covered by already mentioned mechanisms.

Re: Alaska snow crab season canceled after disappearance of an estimated 1B crabs

#350

Overfishing is a classic problem of "Tragedy of the Commons". The oceans are the commons. For example, nobody is predicting a catastrophic decline in the population of pigs, chickens, and cattle. Fish farming is the future.

Tragedy of the Commons is a fallacy. 1. Postulate the Commons 2. Also postulate private interests 3. Let private interests have unfettered access to the Commons 4. Problems! The tragedy is supposedly Commons, but clearly the problem is private interests having unregulated access to the Commons. Tragedy of Private Interests? In any case this seems like more of a climate change issue (again…)

How is it a fallacy? Isn't the whole idea behind it exactly what you said? The tragedy is not the commons itself, it's the tragedy of what happens to the commons.

After all, the tragedy of Romeo and Juliet is what happens to Romeo and Juliet.

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